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[SUGGESTION] Balance changes

#1
Recently Samual made a post about removing the shotgun and laser, and merging them together as a "blaster". Also it had plans for adding a new Lightning gun, to replace the Machine Gun. (That thread can be found here: http://forums.xonotic.org/showthread.php?tid=3407)
It seems too many people were against it, so the topic has died out, and it doesn't really look like anything is going to be changed now.
While I definetely think some things have to change.

I do totally agree with Samual about the fact that that somethings are just impossible to explain:
-Why is the shotgun the only weapon using it's ammo?
-Why are so many weapons using cells?

And there are also problems with the machinegun shooting too randomly, and the riffle in fact being exactly the same as the nex.

My solution:

-Remove the shotgun
-Give laser slapping as secondary
-Replace the MG with the LG
-Shells will be removed entirely
-Cells will be split up. The electro and the LG will use some kind of electricity. The Nex and the Crylink will use an other kind of ammo.

Pro's:
-The weapon system will be easier, just one starting weapon, 3 types of ammo, and the weapons spread out over the sorts of ammo (so you will use them all).
-The shells can simply be removed, and the bullets can get another name and model, will get the LG, and the Crylink can be moved to this ammo type. This can all be done by a script, so it will not be needed to adjust all the maps manually!
-The current laser will remain the same. Laser juggling will stay in game, and will become a bigger factor.
-The LG will just do the MG's job, but than without any randomness. But keep in mind that I think this should mainly be a finishing weapon, I would give it around 100 dps, if you keep it constantly on someone, so it's not gonna be a main damage dealer, it will remain a finisher.
-Crylinc can be more clearly defined. Primary will function like a shotgun (but not hitscan), secondary will remain the small burst it is now, which slows down players (primary shouldn't do that).


Con's:
-The shotgun primary fire as a finisher will be lost. (I think this is acceptable, because it was one of the most boring weapon functions anyway.)
-Things change. People don't seem to like that.

This is by far the best solution I can think of, and I think the game could really benefit from these changes. Please share your opinion on this.

Mepper

P.S. I am willing to really help making this. I certainly can't do this on my own, but I am willing to do a lot of work on this myself.
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#2
Well, I hate the idea, but it's not bad idea. Smile

Why I hate it:
* I like how Xonotic is atm, except nexgun
* I like the shotgun, and like the laser to be a seperated gun
* I like to not have only one spawn weapon
* The ammo system will still be fucked up with non-core weapons

Why it's not a bad idea:
* The ammo system would be better, but also fucked up as stated before
* More quake'ish, so we can make even more qake players come here and rape us on hub(not, this isen't really a good thing IMO, but it would make the game more populated i guess)
* Still having laser
* Still having slap
.........

my idea, make MG, camper rifle and sg to have same ammo, make mortar, rl, hagar(and the rest) have same ammo, let nexgun, crylink and electro have same ammo....
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#3
(11-15-2012, 01:28 PM)Mepper Wrote: My solution:

-Remove the shotgun
-Give laser slapping as secondary
-Replace the MG with the LG
-Shells will be removed entirely
-Cells will be split up. The electro and the LG will use some kind of electricity. The Nex and the Crylink will use an other kind of ammo.

This IS the old concept? It's rejected.

What's the point of this ..
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#4
Not sure, if I'm in entirely for it, but it's coherent concept.

I'm surely for replacing MG with LG. Splitting cells up will probably be necessary with more weapons using that kind of ammo.

I'm not convinced about removing shotgun. But I do think it seriously needs rebalancing due to being OP now. I have come up with different set of cvars for it, and it seems to work better in my opinion:

g_balance_shotgun_primary_damage 2.5
g_balance_shotgun_primary_force 5
g_balance_shotgun_primary_refire 0.5

I have not bothered tweaking melee yet, but I'm quite sure its range needs to be reduced.
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#5
Other people have found other solutions. Some people in their private modifications of the game have added more weapons to the game that use the shotgun shells as ammo, and also created their own balance. Removing the weapons will create a minor hassle for these people as they undo the damage in their git repo, which would take a few min.

The pheonix constantly is consumed and is reborn. In each of our own git repos a new pheonix flies.
Get a git repo, reignite the ashes, make your own version of the game and if you wish, publish it. Variety is very fun.

(LG exists in this git repo, as does all the other weapons, plus some more, thanks to the devs and the flexibility they designed into xonotic)
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#6
Except that most people and server admins use the official releases. Consistency is also good to have, otherwise you have small groups playing different games.
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#7
What about this idea?

SG and Hagar using Shells(shells can have both expolisive and normal you know Wink )
LG and Electro using Energy
Crylink and Nexgun using Cells
Mortar and RL using Rockets


Attached Files
.png   Untitled.png (Size: 41.11 KB / Downloads: 426)
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#8
Just out of curiosity, what is the CORE reason to balance the amount of weapons connected to each ammo type? I can think of plenty reasons myself, like balance, ease for the player etc. If it's just to cut down in the types of ammo that can be placed in maps, how about making shotgun ammo non-replenishable? It would technically have a counter but no "need" to refill it.
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#9
the shotgun is an effective finishing wepon.

also:
[Image: 4FvsA.png]
?????????????????????????
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#10
(11-15-2012, 01:57 PM)Mr. Bougo Wrote: Except that most people and server admins use the official releases. Consistency is also good to have, otherwise you have small groups playing different games.

The same game gets way boring after awhile.

I don't know why people here are arguing balance like it's a religion.
DL git, change it to your liking, release changes somewhere if you wish... and then..


I believe what must be done then is:
* Become a new viscious faction in the holy war.
* Move some followers to middle east to gain converts.
* Cast trechery on opposing factions.
* Use infinite shotgun against their limited shotgun.
* Burn their weapons reducing them to four.
* Enhance your own weapons, infinite varieties of crushing strenth.

24.99 (monthly)
Xonotic [Crusade Edition]
Rated M *and* E (enemy children not be spared!)
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#11
(11-15-2012, 02:33 PM)s1lencer Wrote: the shotgun is an effective finishing wepon.

also:
[Image: 4FvsA.png]
?????????????????????????

What's that image?
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#12
(11-15-2012, 03:00 PM)machine! Wrote: What's that image?

old old old experiment in axial typography layout for HUD ammo counters.
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#13
Looks cool, the typography.
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#14
(11-15-2012, 02:33 PM)s1lencer Wrote: the shotgun is an effective finishing wepon.

also:
[Image: 4FvsA.png]
?????????????????????????
Where's the Hagar? We're keeping that weapon, so it'll stay with the explosive ammo type.

BTW, I like your name suggestions for the other weapons though (I had already previously come up with Arc and Blaster)-- Scattergun for Shotgun, Devastator for Rocketlauncher? I kinda like these Big Grin

For clarification, I abandoned the idea of having only one spawn weapon as it's simply not feasible due to the varying opinions of the community...
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#15
Quote: For clarification, I abandoned the idea of having only one spawn weapon as it's simply not feasible due to the varying opinions of the community
thank you ...

I like the name changes too ... although I had assumed that devastator was hagar ...
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#16
(11-21-2012, 01:06 AM)hutty Wrote:
Quote: For clarification, I abandoned the idea of having only one spawn weapon as it's simply not feasible due to the varying opinions of the community
thank you ...

I like the name changes too ... although I had assumed that devastator was hagar ...
Hagar already has a unique name-- Rocketlauncher is the one which needs the name.
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#17
With all respect, giving weird names to weapons doesn't make Xonotic a better game (or more unique, as you might call it). The truth is that the current weapon system is totally over-complicated - even for experienced players it's hard to tell how much damage they deal in many situations. For example what deals more damage: detonating a rocket with mouse2 when it's close to the the enemy or splash damage? Or take the crylink, it feels totally random. You spam it at the enemy and either he dies or survives but you can't really calculate attacks (enemy got ~50hp, can I kill him with a single shot?). Also the ammo system is the least user friendly one that I've seen in any game so far. I don't think any player can name the ammo consumption of every weapon (1nd/2nd attack) out of his head.
My point is, with threads like this you only scratch at the surface of the problem.
You should stop listen to those "hagar helped me through puberty, please don't remove it"-people and also to the "had so much fun with crylink in 2005, it deserves it spot"-crowd (though I realize and appreciate that many members of the latter really helped the game a lot in the past - but things move on and it's seldom a good idea to stick to some idea just because of nostalgia).
Instead focus on new players (players! not forum idlers), and that means simplicity and user-friendliness first.
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#18
(11-21-2012, 03:17 AM)asyyy Wrote: With all respect, giving weird names to weapons doesn't make Xonotic a better game (or more unique, as you might call it). The truth is that the current weapon system is totally over-complicated - even for experienced players it's hard to tell how much damage they deal in many situations. For example what deals more damage: detonating a rocket with mouse2 when it's close to the the enemy or splash damage? Or take the crylink, it feels totally random. You spam it at the enemy and either he dies or survives but you can't really calculate attacks (enemy got ~50hp, can I kill him with a single shot?). Also the ammo system is the least user friendly one that I've seen in any game so far. I don't think any player can name the ammo consumption of every weapon (1nd/2nd attack) out of his head.
My point is, with threads like this you only scratch at the surface of the problem.
You should stop listen to those "hagar helped me through puberty, please don't remove it"-people and also to the "had so much fun with crylink in 2005, it deserves it spot"-crowd (though I realize and appreciate that many members of the latter really helped the game a lot in the past - but things move on and it's seldom a good idea to stick to some idea just because of nostalgia).
Instead focus on new players (players! not forum idlers), and that means simplicity and user-friendliness first.
Hagar stays because it has a core function which is still uniquely useful, get over it-- same goes for Crylink too.

It's far easier for me to understand/calculate that stuff btw, but perhaps this is just because I'm the one who set the damage/force values of the weapons in the first place. To answer your question about rocket detonation-- the detonation does less damage, unless the detonation is done 15% closer to the target than the non-detonated splash impact. At that point, they equal out... If the detonation is more than 15% closer than a splash impact would be, then it does more damage. A good rule of thumb: If the rocket is going to hit something nearby ANYWAY, let it explode with splash damage. If not (i.e., its trajectory is for a wall 400qu away) then use detonation. Basically, use detonation only as a last resort. Anyway, I can understand the argument of trying to make these less ambiguous, and I do have some ideas on how to do this... Although in the mean time, you should just become a better player. Tongue

As for the names, there is clear reasoning as to why we want to rename the weapons: Consistency, and providing a more clear distinction between the weapons. Thing is, right now our weapons are mixed up, some have "general" names (like Rocketlauncher, Machine Gun, Shotgun, Laser), and some have "specific/unique" names (like Electro, Crylink, Nex, Hagar)... We need to use EITHER general OR specific, as otherwise it is inconsistent and odd. It's the difference between "Arc" and "Lightning Gun", etc etc. Generally I just think it's better to go for unique names, it has a better style to it and I think we can re-enforce the association of the names and their weapons quite well in the future. Additionally, with unique names, we can make weapons have only 1 word associated with it if done right (Scattergun would be called scatter, FYI... or something like this, idk.) -- whereas if we pushed for all general names, it's really not possible to describe some of the other weapons generally without many separate words. Even "Rocket Launcher" is already long and contains two words, and that alone is a simple concept.


Anyway, why do you think i'm trying to clean up this whole system btw? my whole goal is to accomplish this, it's really quite easy to make the system much more solid in the minds of players if the work is put into it.
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#19
Devestator as new RL name seems cool.
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#20
Quote:Although in the mean time, you should just become a better player.
Well if you take everyone including those playing casually on public servers I guess I already am at the top 1% of players. Makes me wonder at whom you think Xonotic shall be targeted..
But I agree, your work goes into the right direction, that's why I support it. Nevertheless I don't think it goes far enough (yet).
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