[SUGGESTION] Share your opinions only on weapon balance!

A lot of people's opinions about weapon balance have been shared but lost under a sea of anger and/or confusion.

I propose that this thread be used as a way for share people to share their opinions about weapon balance FOR REFERENCE.

When you have expressed your opinion DO NOT DISCUSS IT in any other posts on this thread.

A POLL WOULD NOT BE SUITABLE because there wouldn't be enough options for people to vote for.

If you change your mind, EDIT YOUR ORIGINAL POST and don't make a new one. Also, when you edit your post, say WHY you changed your mind.

If you can, try and ORGANISE YOUR POINTS, preferably by separating them with bullet points.

I'll start by expressing my opinions:

My views:

• The Nex is slightly overpowered (peak energy could be reduced by 10-15hp and the recharge time could be increased by 10%)
  
• The shotgun is slightly underpowered (dmg could be increased by 7-10hp, spread could be made slightly wider to compensate for increased power)
  
• The rocket launcher is slightly too slow (speed could be increased by 10-15%)
  

I'd also like to see some kind of cool-down for the hagar (it's just too fast and powerful (insane) atm!).
I'd also (partially) support the idea that the 'Nex should have no charge and do about 90 DPS at a 1s refire'. Some people are against this and say that we might as well play minsta. I'd like to see it in action before judging, though.

OPINIONS EXPRESSED SO FAR: 29!

I WILL ADD A CONCLUSION TO THIS POST ONCE I GET A GOOD AMOUNT OF OPINIONS (SOMETHING LIKE 30 OPINIONS WOULD BE A GOOD TARGET).

HLAC is very difficlut to use properly.
Hagar - I can't kill even myself with it.
Rifle - I sold 3 hits to one guy and he was still walking.
Crylink is a weapon of ultimate destruction
Machinegun seems to be weak a little

Standard:
laser - fine the way it is,
shotgun - OP for a starting weapon, could pass for a pickup weapon currently
MG - primary mostly balanced, but uninspiring, can't wait for LG. Secondary pretty weak
mortar - fine the way it is, maybe increase ammo consumption to 3 units per shot
electro - mostly fine the way it is, might increase power of combos when done with less balls, esp. in the air or on a direct hit, to encourage different play styles other than throw 3 balls and set them off
crylink - primary mostly OK, maybe reduce that "pull" thingy some are crazy about and/or increase ammo consumption to 4 units per shot, secondary OTOH is far too weak and ammo consuming
nex - fine on its own, OP in combo with mortar (juggling 70hp hitscan with powerful explosives? Why bother with anything else?), maybe make ammo consumption depend on level of charge (ie. 6 for full charge, 4 for lowest one, 5 for in between)
hagar - rather fine the way it is, love secondary, primary is meh, but some do use it for suppression rather well.
rl - fine the way it is

Non standard
mine layer - fine
sniper - fine (if you think it's too weak, try headshotting consistently)
hlac - redundant to hagar
tag seeker - too uninspired, might want to turn it into strictly anti-veh weapon
fireball - firemine is imo too weak for a superweapon
tuba - fine

minsta, hook and port-o-launch get no comment.

in 0.6:
crylink - secondary eats too much ammo, so either make it eat less ammo or it should give more damage
rocket - flies too slow
nex - too much damage on any distance, maybe add some recoil damage if shot at a low distance? secondary is redundant with normal zoom, could use something else (also: I hate sniper weapons)
shotgun - too low damage, especially on close distance, I'd give more spread but more damage on close range (I miss the triple shot from nexuiz, when you could 1hit kill with the shotty), secondary is out of place for such a game and overpowered
hagar - awesome, don't change anything ;-)
mortar - ok, maybe could use more damage
machinegun - get rid of reload ;-P
electro - ok, maybe give primary more damage

One person says weapon X is overpowered, another says the entire weapon is useless... etc.


There is no consensus about this stuff, really... there never has been in the past, and there probably never will be I can't really do anything with this information for that reason, there's just no point unless something is drastically wrong with the design... which, there isn't anything drastically wrong in the eyes of the community at the moment anyway.


Go ahead and keep posting opinions as stated in the original post, but I doubt they'll be of any use until further down the road... (at which point they may be irrelevant anyway)

Standard:
laser - Fine the way it is, in addition to being a movement tool it can be very deadly in the hands of someone who knows how to use it
shotgun - For the most part good as it is, could MAYBE use a nerf
MG - Seems fine as it is
mortar - fine the way it is
electro - I personally have too easy of a time killing with this thing, but that may change as the player base gets a bit tougher
crylink - Pretty well balanced. It hits hard, but also drains ammo quickly and you can VERY EASILY kill yourself with it
nex - Fine as is. Charge up prevents continuous overpowered combos in a short period of time.
hagar - Pretty well balanced in my opinion in spite the complaints. VERY useful for harassing, surprise attacks, and pinning players to walls.
rl - Fine as it is

Non standard
mine layer - Fine if the map actually supports it well
sniper - DITCH IT and merge it with the Nex
hlac - DITCH IT
tag seeker - Needs some serious work, but has potential as anti-vehicular weapon
fireball - Needs some work
tuba - fine

AMMO - Needs to be redone so that there is an equal number of (standard anyway) weapons per ammo type.

minsta, hook and port-o-launch get no comment.

Laser - Okey as it is
Shotgun - Too powerful for a spawn weapon
MG - Too weak, only good with quad, would like a minigun instead
Mortar - Perfect, maybe add more time for the secondary to explode
Electro - It's a good weapon, but I want it removed due to the fact that it doesnt fill up any purpose in a battle
Crylink - Would like it to become more of a shotgun with bouncing shots, hopefully replace the shotgun, the secondary needs to be removed or tweaked it is way too weak
Nex - Perfect
Hagar - Fine as it is
RL - Fine as it is

Standard:
laser - Fine the way it is, in addition to being a movement tool it can be very deadly in the hands of someone who knows how to use it
shotgun - For the most part good as it is, could MAYBE use a nerf
MG - Seems fine as it is
mortar - fine the way it is
electro - I personally have too easy of a time killing with this thing, but that may change as the player base gets a bit tougher
crylink - Pretty well balanced. It hits hard, but also drains ammo quickly and you can VERY EASILY kill yourself with it
nex - Fine as is. Charge up prevents continuous overpowered combos in a short period of time.
hagar - Pretty well balanced in my opinion in spite the complaints. VERY useful for harassing, surprise attacks, and pinning players to walls.
rl - Fine as it is

Non standard
mine layer - Fine if the map actually supports it well
sniper - DITCH IT and merge it with the Nex
hlac - DITCH IT
tag seeker - Needs some serious work, but has potential as anti-vehicular weapon
fireball - Needs some work
tuba - fine

AMMO - Needs to be redone so that there is an equal number of (standard anyway) weapons per ammo type.

minsta, hook and port-o-launch get no comment.

Pretty much everything he said.

Also, I think the minelayer should be in every(or almost every) objective based map. I know this could change the CTF that everyone loves, but it's hardly a gun for DM style gameplay, so if we aren't going to use it in the most popular objective based game mode then we might as well just ditch it all together.

shotgun & laser need to be combined

mg is okay, but the spread makes it really inconsistent sometimes

electro seems a little bit easy to use for how much damage it does, but my opponents seem to be learning to dodge it. maybe the balls should come out a tiny slower, but it's no big deal

crylink seems really strong. the pull is awesome but it does tons of damage at the same time. maybe lower damage a little? it's hard to say until i've seen it more. i thought the electro was overpowered for a while after people started using it more; this too may develop over time

rail guns by design are kind of lame, so nex will always be, but it doesn't seem terribly broken right now. any further adjustments should be very small as it's such a delicate concept to balance and it's pretty close to where it should be.

EDIT: LO made this point 3 months ago, and it's still very accurate

It's true, nex is too strong. You can use it in long-, mid- and even close-range fights. What I dont like about it is that you dont have any disadvantages in close-range fights as you can switch to any other weapon in a ms after missing a shot. Also the Nex-to-AnyOtherWeapon-combo makes spawnfragging way too easy because of the instant weapon switch.

The only way to fix this is to have a switch delay at least until the minimum reload. You could still make combos the other way around, but you could not enter a fight with a 90 dmg nexgun shot without having a disadvantage due to the wrong weapon choice - keep in mind that the nexgun is supposed to be a mid-, long-range weapon (no weapon should be strong in all distances).

a fully charged shot does more damage than anything else with one shot. the long refire time and charge is supposed to balance this, but the refire aspect means nothing due to weapon switch speed. at long range, this is mostly fine due to the lower chance of hitting projectiles. in closer fights, however, this means you just got a massive damage boost to your rocket/grenade/plasma/whatever combo, to the point that you are at a disadvantage if you do not fire your nex. the fact that it's easier to land a single hitscan shot than it is to get direct hits with any other gun means that it's the safest combo staple with very few downsides to pulling an uncharged nex vs. a rocket. direct rocket hit is 80 dmg, the most powerful projectile, and an uncharged nex is usually 60-70 dmg. it's doable to get a series of good rockets, but it's easier and faster to hit a nex.

-----------------------------------

weapon balance in a game like this is very hard to judge, especially since maps have a large influence. people get better and worse at things over time, changing the relative power of every gun. there was a day or two where the hagar was op in my hands, but people learned to deal with it. overall, though, the game's guns seem interesting and fun enough.

i only hope that the future lightning gun[errr i mean arc cannon] comes out well-balanced and changes the game for the better >.>

For the record, all of my opinions on weapon balance pertain to my dueling experience (~200 duels)

MG: Useless piece of shit that needs to be removed for the LG, of course that's already in the works anyway. Far too inconsistent to be useful and doesn't combo into anything (as in trying to incorporate it into weapon juggle combos will cut your damage per second in half). As is only used to tag people running away.

Shotgun: I've been using it a lot more recently as I've realized that a lot of the times guaranteed damage vs splash damage is far more effective for myself. What worries me is that when the two starting items are combined that the only other useful hitscan weapon in the game is being eliminated, and (again) without an LG this leaves us only with the Nex.

Nex: Balanced fine the way it is and I don't have a problem with it.

Crylink: Situational but strong weapon. Don't have a problem with it. Secondary fire is total garbage though.

Mortar: Don't have a problem with it as is.

Electro: Reduce damage on shock combos, offers too much damage for too little effort.

Hagar: Fine the way it is.

Rocket Launcher: I don't know if its my experience from Quake/Team Fortress that causes a problem for me but I have a hard time hitting people with horizontal splash damage when detonating rockets with the alt fire when I see the rocket get near an opponent. Would need to have the hurtbox for the in-air splash to be tested, however, so I'm just speculating.

Even though I know HLAC is being removed, I love the weapon just for the fact that the alt fire is almost instant and does a large amount of damage from far away if you're lucky enough to get a tight spread. Also the primary is pretty entertaining and can be used far more consistently. Only map I've played on that uses it however is downer.

rocket slow and needs more curve.

all other weapons fine.

samuals fine the way he is too (hai!)

the t crosshair is excellent (try it!)


t


:^

shotgun:
both are a bit to strong

mg:
primary, has a too wide spread and not enough damage.
secondary is totally useless

mortar:
not enough damage and force. (a bit more should be enough)
the grenade in the secondary mode should bounce more then once.

electro:
is ok

crylink:
the primary is good, but the secondary sucks

nex:
way too low damage should be at least 110 damage and a refire of 1.1.
The charging is not a good idea in my opinion, if the charging stays make ammo use of the nex depending on the charge. for example:
a uncharged shot with a low damage needs 3 cells
a charged shot with full damage needs 10 cells.

hagar:
both are overpowered for a spamming weapon.

rockerlauncher:
the rockets should be faster, and not guideable.

The minstanex shouldnt be placeable.

Shotgun: A bit too strong

MG: Ok, but Im waiting for LG, secondary is useless

Crylink secondary sucks as hell, primary negative force is a bit too strong.

Electro.... I like electro the way it is.

Nexgun is perfect, the best balanced weapon in the game for sure, Don't listen to Cortez.

Hagar: no opinion

Rocket launcher is ok, I like how it feels. I don't think making it faster is a good idea, but Im not against it either.

Mortar: Its a good balanced weapon, it doesn't require further changes, secondary could by slower and more curved like in quake, but Generally I like the way it is right now.

ALL BALANCES SHOULD BE EQUAL BETWEEN GAME MODES (ctf should not have a different balance )

PUSH TO ENEMYS SHOULD BE EQUAL TO PUSH TO SELF

HLAC SOLVES ALL THE PROBLEMS ... all of them

Shotgun -- great DONT combine it

LASER -- color has to match player color
MG -- mostly useless
NEX -- much weaker when uncharged
RIFLE -- headshots need more damage
HLAC -- is great ... most underrated gun in the game
MINELAYER -- mines need to never time out (or make the time out 10 min or something) -- maybe blowup when the player dies
SEEKER -- "ok" could use improvement ... needs a model ... and the sound it makes SUCKS ...

all other guns are fine

Tuba needs more jazz

Tuba needs more jazz

Thank you for making me laugh in the morning!

Electro - make secondary fire faster and increase the damage of primary. I'm something of a permanoob, but honestly, this weapon I find bloody well useless.
Machine gun - make primary a little bit stronger, remove secondary completely as it's useless. Only works in close range because of the time it takes to unload those three shots, and at close range it's better to use the shotgun anyway.
Mortar - OP. Enough said. Don't tone it down too much though.
Mine layer - I don't think the very way this weapon works can work for Xonotic, honestly. It's the fact that the game is so fast-paced that makes this weapon so pathetic, IMO. It might as well be removed, it just doesn't fit in and is useless. Or at least, I've never achieved anything with it.
Rocket Launcher - could fire a few milliseconds faster.
Rifle - not enough of them in the default maps!

Everything that hasn't been mentioned I find very balanced.

laser - My only real request is keep this as is, it's awesome and i wish more games had similar weapons.

Samual, you nailed it, it's an impossible task really. keeping it short so as not to hijack the thread.

Any more opinions? Please read my first post before posting.

well, if you ask for it...

Basically all weapons are absolutely fine for me (even if this disqualifies my opinion as "obviously ignorant"). Only thing I could think of is unbundling negative push force and high damage on the crylink, but given it is rather hard to hit a running FC if you're not close, it can even stay as it is from my point of view.

So, yes, I like the current system. But I'm easy to please.

My main concerns:
- mortar primary is too weak. What about reducing its splash radius to tiny and instead rewarding direct hits more? This would also discriminate it more from the rocket launcher
- mortar secondary could be more curved and slower like justin said. With all those weapons Xonotic lacks a real grenade launcher imo, even throwing a grenade by hand like on overkill could be an option
- electro combo is too easy to do and too powerful. Reduce damage and/or make those bubbles harder to control
- sg is overpowered, picking up weapons in a public ffa game isn't very rewarding
- nexgun charging is meh.. set a fixed damage per shot and remove charging. Instead set switch/reload time to a high value so it is possible to rush someone who got the nexgun out in an unfavorable situation
- crylink primary should have a little more spread, secondary needs more damage per shot

Keep the opinions coming people! READ THE FIRST POST BEFORE REPLYING!

Shotgun - I don't think its overpowered, I completely agree with OP. Increase dmg a lil bit and put wider spread.
RL - Maybe a very little faster reload, but not faster rockets. I think its fine the way it is.
Nex - The dmg is fine. I like rafallus's idea of make ammo consumption depend on level of charge.
MG - The LG will solve the problems here, I see people complaining about reloads (which I think its nice) and about the spread, well, I guess the LG will solve both of these things. As a secondary weapon set, dunno about turning it into a Chaingun, QuakeLive has both LG and CG, but no one gives a flying fuck for CG.

mortar: primary is fine as it is. secondary is too random and not so useful. Less speed and higher damage would be fine.

Nex: perfect.

hagar: primary is ok, secondary can have more maximum bullets per shot - 5-6..

Mg: no comments, waiting for Lg.

Rl: sometimes it looks a little bit slow and too random. (or mb i need more practice with it)

crylink: fine, but secondary looks weak.

Sg: perfect.

Rifle: i like it as it is, but Nex is a lot more impressive. So Rifle can be removed.

Other weapons: a little experience - no comments.

Keep the opinions coming guys! I want to make an overall conclusion when I get at least 30 opinions.