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Music and Sound forum section discussion

#1
Music 
Hey!

This idea was dropped some time in the past (by me - I confess!).

Now, it has clarified in my mind, and because of the recent things happening in another thread, I think that music can be developed much like software here - through help of social interactions.

I'd like a place where:

  • General music preparation/submission/mixing/mastering tips are displayed as a pinned thread (as short and unambigous as possible)
  • Every track just like any other feature can have it's own thread for discissing how it should evolve, what can be changed in it to better fit the gameplay, suggesting maps this track would match, getting feedback from players, showing off different versions, sharing sources, voting on possible maps/game types to use the track in etc.
  • Music considered as finished and polished can be shown to a few peoples who know something about music, and could decide if the track is accepted to join the game's official pool of music (should I say: soundtrack?) or it should undergo some further changes.
  • A list of officially accepted tracks with will be displayed for everyone to see what is what;
  • Mappers can quickly listen to and pick music for their maps - also get the files needed and add their map's name/link to the list of "maps using this track" so everyone know what is what;
  • Sound effects have a place to be discussed, accepted, added and used too, just like music;

Also, I'd like to suggest a few Forum modifications:
  • Make forum accept Ogg/FLAC/MP3/WAV attachements;
  • Make it embed a built-in audio player (html5?) with download option
  • Make forum accept the project files for music in some way (.zip?)
And also give some food for thought about making it easier for players to test music in-game - a loop function in the forum player? A loop function reading file "loop_start" and "loop_end" tags and looping files accordingly?

What say thou?
[Image: BSF48.png][Image: HMITP48.png][Image: S48.png][Image: TLT48.png]
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#2
I'm only in position of addressing the forum modification suggestions. I'm not in favor of any modification because it's already complicated enough as it is now to maintain things. But in any case, I don't think we want to have too many attachments in the forum database. Perhaps it's better to host the tracks on youtube or soundcloud, which can already be embedded in posts. Project files, I don't know; those tend to be heavy, don't they?

For the split, I'm not in position to decide anything. If you want, I can call a team vote over this.
[Image:http://i.imgur.com/4XODR.png]640K ought to be enough for anybody.
     ― Linux Torvalds
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#3
(06-08-2014, 06:51 PM)Mr. Bougo Wrote: For the split, I'm not in position to decide anything. If you want, I can call a team vote over this.

Yes, please.

Suggestions:
  • Move all audio related threads there (*can do*).
  • Have two official threads for serious submissions (new), each for "Music" and "Sound", including a guideline what is needed and so on.
  • unfa as moderator of that subforum

..and what unfa listed (before "Forum modifications").
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#4
Okay, poll's created, will be visible on this url when it's closed (max. ten days) http://46.4.83.5:27500/poll/256
[Image:http://i.imgur.com/4XODR.png]640K ought to be enough for anybody.
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#5
(06-08-2014, 08:29 PM)Mirio Wrote:
(06-08-2014, 06:51 PM)Mr. Bougo Wrote: For the split, I'm not in position to decide anything. If you want, I can call a team vote over this.
  • Move all audio related threads there (*can do*).
  • Have two official threads for serious submissions (new), each for "Music" and "Sound", including a guideline what is needed and so on.
  • unfa as moderator of that subforum

..and what unfa listed (before "Forum modifications").
Hmm. After a track or a sound/soundpack is submitted and accepted, it should also be visible to public (for mappers mostly) as such.

I suggested a separate sticky thread for "Accepted music" so maybe just another for "Accepted sounds" would be good?

I'd like to moderate this subforum - I'd just need some help in the beginning and a little "training course" what to do.

(06-08-2014, 06:51 PM)Mr. Bougo Wrote: I'm only in position of addressing the forum modification suggestions. I'm not in favor of any modification because it's already complicated enough as it is now to maintain things. But in any case, I don't think we want to have too many attachments in the forum database. Perhaps it's better to host the tracks on youtube or soundcloud, which can already be embedded in posts. Project files, I don't know; those tend to be heavy, don't they?

For the split, I'm not in position to decide anything. If you want, I can call a team vote over this.

If the problem is that people need to moderate the forum posts, and new subforum means more work - I can help with this and moderate the music/sound subforum.

Soundcoud might work, however if it's possible to create such a tool would be great - mappers can host their screenshots and map packages on the forums, but musicians need to find another way around.

The size of source files for music depends on how it's made and what is used in production (also: how much you want to deliver - I won't deliver a render and and my Audacity session where I have "mastered" the track - it's pointless and would add 50-100 MB and no extra possibilities.

If I recorded an acoustic track with guitars and live percussion on 5 tracks, I'd have 500-1000 MB of source files of this track, but since I'm making electronic music with synthesizers, my source files rarely exceed 1 MB. If I record a sample or two, it might jump to 3 or 5 MB maybe, but I do this rarely.
[Image: BSF48.png][Image: HMITP48.png][Image: S48.png][Image: TLT48.png]
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#6
(06-09-2014, 05:49 AM)unfa Wrote: If the problem is that people need to moderate the forum posts, and new subforum means more work - I can help with this and moderate the music/sound subforum.

Soundcoud might work, however if it's possible to create such a tool would be great - mappers can host their screenshots and map packages on the forums, but musicians need to find another way around.

The size of source files for music depends on how it's made and what is used in production (also: how much you want to deliver - I won't deliver a render and and my Audacity session where I have "mastered" the track - it's pointless and would add 50-100 MB and no extra possibilities.

If I recorded an acoustic track with guitars and live percussion on 5 tracks, I'd have 500-1000 MB of source files of this track, but since I'm making electronic music with synthesizers, my source files rarely exceed 1 MB. If I record a sample or two, it might jump to 3 or 5 MB maybe, but I do this rarely.

The problem isn't about moderation, it's about available storage space on our web servers and maintenance of forum modifications.

I don't want to mod the forums further because we already have enough trouble maintaining it as it is. Instead of transforming the attachment system into a streaming platform, I suggest you use external services that are already available. Mappers usually host their screenshots on third-party hosts as well.

People are free to attach zip files, but I can't say how reliable the forums are as a hosting service. I don't know what our limitations are, or how failure-tolerant the system is. Don't rely on it.



As for the subsection, that's up to you, I guess. However, we can not accept music into the official soundtrack without consulting the team as a whole through a team vote. The forum section can be very useful to curate tracks as a first step toward inclusion, as well as to serve mappers for community content.
[Image:http://i.imgur.com/4XODR.png]640K ought to be enough for anybody.
     ― Linux Torvalds
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#7
I'm nobody but I'm here just to say that I think is a nice idea to have a subforum about music developement.

About attaching files... Heh, I'm here to support a new subforum Tongue
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#8
Okay. The team has accepted the vote, so I'm just waiting for someone who can help execute this idea.
[Image: BSF48.png][Image: HMITP48.png][Image: S48.png][Image: TLT48.png]
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#9
Oopsy. Glad you're insisting. It's done now!

It's empty for now, but if you want me to move some threads in it, feel free to ask. Please also check that the name and description are okay for you Wink
[Image:http://i.imgur.com/4XODR.png]640K ought to be enough for anybody.
     ― Linux Torvalds
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#10
I'd just move the related threads there.
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#11
We'll see with unfa. If he wants to stick with a given format or set of rules, maybe moving threads isn't a good idea.
[Image:http://i.imgur.com/4XODR.png]640K ought to be enough for anybody.
     ― Linux Torvalds
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#12
I think the name and description are ok.

However it'd be good to divide the space inside for a few things as I wrote eariler.
[Image: BSF48.png][Image: HMITP48.png][Image: S48.png][Image: TLT48.png]
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#13
Divide the space inside? You mean have subcategories as is done in WW?

It wouldn't be very consistent with the other forums, and it would not necessarily make things simpler, but if you feel that it's needed or would help, let me know what categories you want Smile
[Image:http://i.imgur.com/4XODR.png]640K ought to be enough for anybody.
     ― Linux Torvalds
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#14
(06-27-2014, 01:18 PM)Mr. Bougo Wrote: Divide the space inside? You mean have subcategories as is done in WW?

It wouldn't be very consistent with the other forums, and it would not necessarily make things simpler, but if you feel that it's needed or would help, let me know what categories you want Smile

I thought about some divisions, but maybe this can be done with sticky threads, as Mirio suggested to me on IRC.

I'm thinking of these sticky threads:

· Before you submit a track (Music tips and guidelines)
· Accepted Music (Music agreed for the OST - mappers can use tracknumber)
· Music Submissions (Music regarded as finished and polled for voting - mappers can find music for unofficial maps here)
· Music References (Tracks we like from other games, that might be good inspiration)

I wonder what to do with Sound - I'm not sure how new SFX could actually make it into the game oficially, I mean - would it make sense? Or maybe I should create a thread where all the good stuff is linked so mappers can come around and use what they need for their maps?)

I guess the music will get way more attention anyway.
[Image: BSF48.png][Image: HMITP48.png][Image: S48.png][Image: TLT48.png]
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#15
Mhm. How this new forum relates to development for contribution to the OST (as opposed to tracks that mappers can use but aren't planned for inclusion) is something that you should discuss with the core team.

As for sound, it also includes voice work (announcer, taunts...), or ambient sfx as well. I don't know whether that's relevant to the new section or whether you are / want to / should be in charge of that.

This all should really be discussed with the team I think. I personally don't know how sound dev is organized, or what is or isn't needed. I'm just assisting with the forum stuff right now ;P
[Image:http://i.imgur.com/4XODR.png]640K ought to be enough for anybody.
     ― Linux Torvalds
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#16
As for songs, there were posted in the official thread and then we had public polls about inclusion.
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#17
Yeah, but that was a long time ago. Better ask the core team.
[Image:http://i.imgur.com/4XODR.png]640K ought to be enough for anybody.
     ― Linux Torvalds
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#18
(06-30-2014, 12:16 PM)Mr. Bougo Wrote: Yeah, but that was a long time ago. Better ask the core team.

Because there were no more songs added since that last poll. Tongue
(respectively no one was in charge really)

My, core team member Wink, opinion:
People should post their songs in an official thread for submissions. Then the guys responsible in the team for music/sound (unfa & Archer) check them (source etc.) and propose a poll with about 20 songs.
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#19
(06-08-2014, 06:51 PM)Mr. Bougo Wrote: Perhaps it's better to host the tracks on youtube or soundcloud, which can already be embedded in posts.
I can't find any way to embed soundcloud tracks, though I'd love it if this were possible at some point (or perhaps if somebody would tell me how if it is already possible Big Grin )

(06-08-2014, 06:51 PM)Mr. Bougo Wrote: Project files, I don't know; those tend to be heavy, don't they?
Generally a few hundred kb in my experience, most of the size usually comes from samples if any were used.
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#20
Yeah, the soundcloud thing is a bit hidden. Wrap the track url around [sc][/sc] or [soundcloud][/soundcloud]. Actually I'm not sure it works anymore, I'll do some tests.

EDIT: There, fixed it. You can also click "share" on the track, select embed, check the "wordpress" checkbox and copy the code as-is into the forum.

Let me know if you want be able to embed playlists, I'll see what I can do.
[Image:http://i.imgur.com/4XODR.png]640K ought to be enough for anybody.
     ― Linux Torvalds
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