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New DOOM multiplayer Alpha

#26
(03-30-2016, 03:22 AM)Smilecythe Wrote: This makes Doom 3 look fast
Silly me thought you'd be serious and had a look at the vid in the expectation of some fast paced action. Lost myself in a daydream at minute 2...
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#28
BITCH this is the DOOM 4 thread
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#30
kkk, take this doom 4 link then https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uPML45CnBMg
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#31


This guy sums up my feelings pretty well. Also the guy sounds a bit like Champion_The
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#32
I agree with the points he makes, the issues he raised sound really critical to a competitive gameplay experience.

Reminds me a bit of https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W1ZtBCpo0eU
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#33
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#34
(04-04-2016, 04:06 AM)Smilecythe Wrote:

As an old school DM player that started with Doom on Dwango, I can empathize to a *certain* degree, however id's not out there to please cynical dinosaurs like this reviewer who represent about .000001 percent of the gaming population out there, it's to *make money*, and this is what people these days want. Some of his review is to come off like an asshat with anger issues(or maybe it's really how he is), I mean, c'mon, complaining about double jumps, and claiming to have been well versed in arena FPS games? And I hate to break it to him, but it's "id" Software, not "Eye Dee" software.

He kind of reminds me of the girl who rocks her high school hair cut at 40. Not exactly open to change. Though I prefer the old school, fast movement, pick up weapons, etc style of DM, I can't say that this doesn't look really fun. I mean getting a powerup, spawning as a demon, and wreaking havoc on players? That sounds like fun, and how is that any different than picking up a quad and laying waste to everything in your path? Hell, it sounds even more fun, and certainly satisfying.

This is Doom, and while it doesn't resemble the original's DM style, it's not trying to be Quake either. It is it's own thing, and that should make it interesting. There will still be plenty of strategies, and points to defend, items to time, etc. It's just different, and probably a hell of a lot more appealing to new gamers who don't want to be pwned by seasoned vets who time the weapon spawns. The idea of spawning with a variety of weapons is a pretty good idea, IMO. Why do you think instagib is SOOOO popular? It eliminates the frustration that many feel when they can't find or get a weapon and just keep getting massacred.

From the footage I've seen, the single player game looks amazing and much more like the original than Doom 3. The multiplayer will likely draw an entire new generation into deathmatch that isn't just sitting behind boxes and sniping. id will have a massive hit that will do justice to the series.
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#35
Sure, the game could be fun just like instagib, but this is not what arena shooters are like at all! If you can't enjoy Xonotic vanilla, then the chances are you don't understand the tactics or enjoy the type of gameplay in the first place. In other words; arena shooters aren't your thing. I'm tired of people calling "arena shooter" on any fast paced game with square like level design and couple items laying on the floor. That's not what makes an arena shooter an "arena shooter". If that were the case then literally every game has the potential to be an arena shooter. And as a loyal arena shooter enthusiast, I won't tolerate such term hijacking.

The issue is not really that it's not like Quake.. The issue I have with it is that it claims to be an "arena shooter" yet it lacks what literally every other arena shooter has in common with; resource control and the emphasis it puts into making decisions. Sure you have powerups and some armor in Doom 4.. but you're ready to contest them the moment you spawn. You don't need to make decisions between running towards a weapon or an armor, because when you spawn you already have everything you need to survive the pickups and even kill people. And when you kill someone you get some armor drops as well, so you don't even need to look for armor as long as you chain kill people. And if you happen to die, you'll just spawn with full frag power again and finish whoever was gnawing at you before. So the game is really just about brainless running and gunning. All of that glorious powerup/rune control is just a clusterfuck with everyone always being on equal chances of contesting it. Even the original Doom was nothing like this.

The point of resource control in an arena shooter is that you can fight head to toe with an opponent that has better aim than you as long as you can keep them starving off resources and keep yourself armored to render their damage useless. This basically gives power to the player with better decisions and strategy, which in turn gives the game an endless variety of different playstyles and strengths. This is not possible in instagib or in round based modes like Clan arena, because ultimately those modes boil down to whoever has the best accuracy and positions to deal damage from. If a game consisted only of those two game modes, I wouldn't call it an arena shooter either as it would lack the arena shooter like balance between execution and decision making. Well, I would call it a shitty arena shooter at best. To me Doom is just false advertising and misrepresenting of a subgenre of shooters which is targeted to an audience that never cared for that subgenre in first place. This has nothing to do with "being an elitist", it's just recognizing when something is not what it claims to be.

If there's ever gonna be some kind of "promode" in Doom that caters towards the faithful arena shooter formula, then yay.. But I don't see it changing things for the niche. It's just going to be another fragmented community like OSP, CPMA or Q4MAX.. and the chance of the true arena gameplay getting back to the mainstream got already wasted on this casual targeting monstrosity.
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#36
I never liked Doom 3, the campaign is good it's just sad how they killed the original character from DOOM 1 and DOOM ][, plus the music was alright but it wasn't good enough from the original DOOM . The campaign in the original was you're the last man and on Earth, Doom 3 you had all these new characters. The new monster looks in Doom 3 didn't looked like anything like the original DOOM, example colors were different and the monsters looked different. You also had to carry a flashlight all day, DOOM 4 better be good. Though the Cyberdemon in Doom 3 was good.
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#37
Smilecythe, what you wrote isn't what an arena fps is. It's what you WANT a competitive Arena FPS to be.

I'm with Irritant on this one, whilst a dinosaur myself, I agree that they are there to make money. I also agree that it is atleast trying to differentiate it's self and be something new. How often are people complaining of 'Oh just another quake clone'.

Time's have changed as Irritant says. The days of wanting to massacre people as a experience player, but wanting new players to stay and play (as in, a good majority of them), isn't going to happen. Period.

And i'll say what I say all the time. Unreal tournament/Quake were never born as 'competitive' shooters. A competitive scene was made out of them, there is nothing stopping people doing that with DOOM4, why not take the game and make a competitive scene out of it. Rather then trying to just want it to be in the same mould as a Quake game, same movement etc.

Anyway enough, I will definitely try it, it looks like fun and if the gameplay has some different/interesting elements (e.g. demon spawning) it could be fun to play. If I enjoy it, I'll play it,
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#38
(04-04-2016, 04:43 PM)kojn^ Wrote: Smilecythe, what you wrote isn't what an arena fps is. It's what you WANT a competitive Arena FPS to be.
It's the best definition because that's what all arena shooters have in common with. And if you don't stick to that definition then a vast majority of games can be called an arena shooter and then you got nothing to distinguish the genre with.

EDIT:
(04-04-2016, 04:43 PM)kojn^ Wrote: Unreal tournament/Quake were never born as 'competitive' shooters. A competitive scene was made out of them, there is nothing stopping people doing that with DOOM4, why not take the game and make a competitive scene out of it.
I'm not against it or deny the possibility, I just don't recognize the game as an arena shooter. It's same as if you were to play Chivalry and notice that it's not a sci-fi game, it lacks the key element that all other sci-fi games have in common with. When I say "DOOM is not an arena shooter" by no means am I implying it's not fun or that it doesn't have any competitive value. It's just not a fucking arena shooter Big Grin and it's not going to please the arena shooter enthusiasts (as an arena shooter) even though it advertises to do so.
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#39
(04-06-2016, 06:50 AM)Smilecythe Wrote: I'm not against it or deny the possibility, I just don't recognize the game as an arena shooter. It's same as if you were to play Chivalry and notice that it's not a sci-fi game, it lacks the key element that all other sci-fi games have in common with. When I say "DOOM is not an arena shooter" by no means am I implying it's not fun or that it doesn't have any competitive value. It's just not a fucking arena shooter Big Grin and it's not going to please the arena shooter enthusiasts (as an arena shooter) even though it advertises to do so.

Again, you have a narrow definition of what an "arena shooter" is.

An 'Arena Shooter" is deathmatch(or some variant) played in an arena style map, simply put really.

id is not looking to please what you're calling the "enthusiasts"(namely, people that love Q3 and UT). For starters, they cater to that niche with Quake Live. But mainly, they are looking to hook a new generation of gamers, and like it or not, the new generation doesn't want what arena shooters like Q3 and UT have to offer. Believe me, as one of the dinosaurs that goes back to Dwango, I truly hate that has become the case, but at the same time I see the merits, and why it appeals to new gamers.
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#40
(04-06-2016, 10:29 AM)Irritant Wrote: Again, you have a narrow definition of what an "arena shooter" is.

An 'Arena Shooter" is deathmatch(or some variant) played in an arena style map, simply put really.
The first flaw in your definition is that you can include way too many games that have vastly different game mechanics. There's deathmatch mode in CS as well and a variety of Quake like arena maps that people can play on. Does that pass as an arena shooter as well? Also there's a game called ProjectRIK that is a stand alone game of Q3 mode DeFRaG, which is basically racing and some aspect of weapon tricks. A lot of the levels are very arena like. Would this get on the arena shooter boat too? Also, what kind of level design passes as an "arena"? Is it old school Quake style, a gladiator arena-ish thing or something more linear and flat from CS 1.6? Where do you draw the line exactly?

That brings me to the second flaw in your definition; you have to denife what "arena" is as well. Sure, the term "arena shooter" may imply what you said, but that's not at all how arena shooters differ from any other shooters. That's why the definition needs to be narrower and look for something what's in common in all of them universally.
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#41
(04-06-2016, 03:00 PM)Smilecythe Wrote: There's deathmatch mode in CS as well and a variety of Quake like arena maps that people can play on. Does that pass as an arena shooter as well?

Yes, most certainly.

(04-06-2016, 03:00 PM)Smilecythe Wrote: Also there's a game called ProjectRIK that is a stand alone game of Q3 mode DeFRaG, which is basically racing and some aspect of weapon tricks. A lot of the levels are very arena like. Would this get on the arena shooter boat too?

Racing is not shooting. So, no.

(04-06-2016, 03:00 PM)Smilecythe Wrote: Also, what kind of level design passes as an "arena"? Is it old school Quake style, a gladiator arena-ish thing or something more linear and flat from CS 1.6? Where do you draw the line exactly?

Any level that you cannot exit out of that is designed for players to stay in and kill each other is an arena of some type.

(04-06-2016, 03:00 PM)Smilecythe Wrote: Sure, the term "arena shooter" may imply what you said, but that's not at all how arena shooters differ from any other shooters. That's why the definition needs to be narrower and look for something what's in common in all of them universally.

Arena shooters differ from other shooters basically in that your main objective is to kill your opponents online without any other real objectives, and typically you play in levels that are more confined, circular, and non-linear. There are of course obvious variations and added objectives such as CTF, etc, and obvious exceptions in level design(other than no exiting it).

Doom multiplayer is clearly an arena shooter. Just because it changes a few aspects of how it was done in Q3 and some others in the past does not mean it is not. Was Shootmania an arena shooter? How about instagib modes in even pure arena shooters like Q3 and UT? Of course they were, and so is Doom, even if it's not following the same exact formula. If you want to throw in the "old school" moniker, than yes, I'd totally agree that Doom is not an "Old School Arena Shooter".

Whether id calls it an "arena shooter" or not is going to have absolutely no impact on how many people play it. Have you seen the player counts in Quake Live, and other "pure" arena shooters? Why has that game failed, as well as ever other single arena shooter that has been released in the past ten years? It's because they didn't adapt to the changing world around them. Some tried, but didn't mess with the formula enough. I won't applaud id for what they have done just yet, as I have not actually played the game, but at least they are trying to do something about it.
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#42
Bethesda announcing DOOM DLC: https://bethesda.net/#en/events/game/doo.../04/06/101

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why
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#43
(04-06-2016, 04:49 PM)Irritant Wrote: Arena shooters differ from other shooters basically in that your main objective is to kill your opponents online without any other real objectives, and typically you play in levels that are more confined, circular, and non-linear.
So are you telling me Xonotic is not an arena shooter? Controlling items is a very important objective in Xonotic - even more important than killing, because you won't get far with just going for kills. That only happens in instagib and instagib is a gameplay mutator.

(04-06-2016, 04:49 PM)Irritant Wrote: Was Shootmania an arena shooter? How about instagib modes in even pure arena shooters like Q3 and UT? Of course they were, and so is Doom, even if it's not following the same exact formula.
If you play catch ball on a baseball field, it doesn't mean you're playing baseball. And no, Shootmania isn't an arena shooter either.

(04-06-2016, 04:49 PM)Irritant Wrote: Any level that you cannot exit out of that is designed for players to stay in and kill each other is an arena of some type.
So if minecraft were a shooter then that would be the kind of game that isn't an arena shooter? I don't think that you realize that you're describing 90% of online shooters in the market. You're too fixated on the literal meaning of "arena shooter" and ignoring the reason why people distinct arena shooters from regular shooters.

(04-06-2016, 04:49 PM)Irritant Wrote: Some tried, but didn't mess with the formula enough.
By the same logic none of the recent CoD games should be selling, yet somehow they're selling. I sincerely believe arena shooters can sell too if put into same position. Doesn't matter if they're innovative or not.

Xonotic certainly tries to stick out, but Xonotic is a free non-profit game and the budget to advertise it comes directly from the community's tiny wallets. It's nonsensical to say Xonotic is unpopular because it's too similar to Quake, then comparing this to a success of a game with a triple-A budget. No arena shooter has been ambitious since 2005 and no arena shooter ever has had the advertising campaign of a modern triple-A shooter. Not Quake Live, not Toxikk and certainly not Reflex.

EDIT:

(04-06-2016, 04:49 PM)Irritant Wrote: Racing is not shooting. So, no.
No, but you do shoot in it. Defrag has a lot of shooting involved in it. And if your argument to this is that "you're not shooting other people" - then people do plenty of that in "freestyle" which is a defrag variant of people doing solo/team trickjumps, using rockets to boost self and others to reach heights and lenghts.
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#44
(04-07-2016, 11:19 AM)Smilecythe Wrote:
(04-06-2016, 04:49 PM)Irritant Wrote: Arena shooters differ from other shooters basically in that your main objective is to kill your opponents online without any other real objectives, and typically you play in levels that are more confined, circular, and non-linear.
So are you telling me Xonotic is not an arena shooter? Controlling items is a very important objective in Xonotic - even more important than killing, because you won't get far with just going for kills. That only happens in instagib and instagib is a gameplay mutator.

I never said that. Controlling items is a sub-objective - the main goal is to kill. Controlling items is a means to an end, which in the case of Arena Shooters, is killing your opponents.

At this point though, you're just playing Silly Buggers and building strawman arguments. Whether you want to agree or not, I've made my point, and I've nothing further to add, and certainly am not going to get into a high school debate.
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#45
(04-07-2016, 01:38 PM)Irritant Wrote: Controlling items is a sub-objective - the main goal is to kill. Controlling items is a means to an end, which in the case of Arena Shooters, is killing your opponents.
That sub-objective is key in what distinguishes arena shooters from regular shooters. Sometimes killing your opponent is simply not possible and you have to collect whatever you can until you can gain advantage in the next fight. Sure, the scoreboard counts kills but if you think you think that's all there is to it, then you don't really know arena shooters. Deathmatch in CS passes as an arena shooter? Then I guess I should call Worms an arena shooter as well on the basis of what you've been saying. Give me a break.

Your definition of arena shooters is way too inclusive, which just renders it a pointless label.

(04-07-2016, 01:38 PM)Irritant Wrote: I've nothing further to add, and certainly am not going to get into a high school debate.
Nobody's gonna judge if you lose an internet argument to a high schooler.
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#46
Shooters are like religions. That 1v1 argument here is like a Mormon vs Catholic arguing about Jesus. One being a highschooler who pwns grownups in debates, but thats not important Smile
I feel like everyone who spent a considerable time in gaming with shooters (throughout a decade or more) had something to take from it and put in perspective. It is clear that the narrower we try to define an arena fps, the more variable the definition may get, which is ok. To me personally, arena fps as a term was primarily defined by quake and ut. There were other players in the industry too, but lets face it, thats where the common definition of an arena fps was really formed. So for me, whatever traits a next gen fps game gets from quake or ut, may as well be defined as an arena fps trait. Item control? yes. High speed movement dynamics? yes. (CoD does not pass here, neither does DOOM4 as it is quite as slow as CoD games by what i've seen from the videos). BTW, I am not automatically saying its bad, because I dont think its very arena fps, etc. I just dont see it as much of an fps arena game. arena fps != (good or bad). This is how I think about it. That makes me an eastern orthodox christian maybe. Big Grin
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#47
So. BethesDOOM now has paid DLCs for new weapons and maps? Not campaign/singleplayer content? Seriously... the DooM(Not DOOM) subreddit is basically people complaining about it right now.
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#48
DOOM was made for fun long ago, not money... Confused
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#49


A video clip of Doom 4 strafe jumping. (not mine) Skip to somewhere around 0:40

Air accel reminds me of Daikatana or Crysis. And the inconsistency of jumping suggests that you might have to sync your jump press with landing ala CS or the jumper is simply horrible/has input issues. It might also be the result of there not being ground accel to smooth the landing/turning on ground. The way it looks on video kind of reminds me of Illfonic's Nexuiz as well although there was no accel in there.
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#50
Got into the open beta and... Man did they fuck this up. I really don't know what the hell they were trying to do with it, but it's like they managed to make a weightless game that has literally EVERY BAD MECHANIC THAT EXISTS IN EVERY COD CLONE TO BE RELEASED SINCE 2007. Movement manages to be both slow as shit and at the same time reminiscent of Illfonic's Nexuiz (how that's possible, I do not know), double jumping is pretty much useless except to get over certain pits or make yourself an easy target, WHO THE FUCK THOUGHT LOADOUTS WITHOUT SWAPPABLE WEAPONS WAS A GOOD IDEA?, rocket launcher wrecks everything, guns have no feel or knock back to them, game breaking perks, the list goes on...
ECKZBAWKZ HUGE LIST OF ACHIEVEMENTS GOES HERE....


Oh wait.
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