Stermy checking out xonotic

I agree with kojn, the reaction is really overemphasized. @fisume: what counts as "positive"?

Alessandro "stermy" Avallone :yeah the game itself its quite nice. At first I thought I had some problems with the movements because I was sure the air control was similar to PK/PQL - but then I completely got it. Overall the game its quite nice, the dev team integrated most of the things that are are important from competitive point of view. Props to them. <-that

The balance talk is over. Now we talk about Illfonic.

[blablablaragelblablalblab]ARGGGGHHHH![/blablablaragelblablalblab]

Alessandro "stermy" Avallone :yeah the game itself its quite nice. At first I thought I had some problems with the movements because I was sure the air control was similar to PK/PQL - but then I completely got it. Overall the game its quite nice, the dev team integrated most of the things that are are important from competitive point of view. Props to them. <-that

It'd be more interesting to know what "important from competitive point of view" that are not implemented yet.

The balance talk is over. Now we talk about Illfonic.

NO!
Now we talk abt BALANCING Illfonic's Naxyouiiizzz!

Seriously ppl. wtf? Cant we have a single thread without this balance crap in it? please?

You just mentioned it again!!!

Maybe it's the best idea to drop the subject and wait for new arc cannon/chaingun/unified sniper modifications, as they are confirmed by devs and will definitely change the opinion. I do wonder, what is gonna happen to Crylink secondary though.

ild like 5 grams of lead on the end of the shotgun (BALANCE NERD THINGO FTW)

AS FOR ILLFLACCID!

er..

i spkelled that right?

they sux , so do u all for this biased balance nerd thingo :p

THIS IS ABOUT SOME SUPER NERD THAT CAN PAWN US PAWN TO PAWNTOPIA

stermy.. , again welcome , HOW ABOUT YOU JOIN UP TO THE FORUMS AND HAVE A FRIENDLY NERD CHAT , WITH MUCH RESPECT TO YA AWESOME NERD MIDDLE MAN , BUT COME DIRECT TO THE FORUM , NOT THROUGH HIM (soooorrryy Apr0ph1z but im being honest , i do respect you mate , also thello) SO COMON SHOW US NOOOOOOOBS WHAT A SUPER EPIC %100 MEGA LUCK GO GO PLAYER CAN TELL US TO HELP US MAKE THIS NERD GAME WORK 4 REAL , WE ARE MAKING THIS FOR THE WORLD FOR FEE , WE ARE GIVING IT AWAY (oh caps is on...)

er..


just spend a few years with us ok?

ITS NOT that LONG...

t
(ill teach ya t when ya join too)

t


:^

Autobuild should not be the standard, perhaps an installer is a possibility but not autobuild.

agreed. A windows installer, deb/rmp packages, and mac packages are a Must for the 1.0 release.

Also an ebuild, PKGBUILD, spell and a few more formats I don't know about.

Or just leave it to distros' package writers.

Chooskta, You Are CRAZY (ops caps is on...)
But I agree that it 'd be nice to see you, stermy in-game

In my opinion mg spread is too big tho.

just a sidenote: I remember 1 year ago some convinced and convincing posters already saying: "stop balance topics guys. The game is nearly perfect, so wtf??".
We were at 0.1 or so. Physics and balance were altogether pretty mediocre.
So, today, those who are (still) saying so make me feel somehow that they may be wrong.

I had some concerns. Imho, there is still room to significatively improve the game.
I understood that the balance topic has been declared close.
As instead, I'll probably post something pizza-related into the off-topic forum...

You misunderstood. Read again, people are asking not to turn every thread into a balance thread. Making a balance thread from scratch instead of derailing an unrelated thread is more welcome.

I made a thread for weapon balance, feel free to take it out there:

http://forums.xonotic.org/showthread.php?tid=2614

Making a balance thread from scratch instead of derailing an unrelated thread is more welcome.

oh... my fault.
I'll then try to convince myself that "more welcome" means actually welcome... and i'll probably post something somewhere else.

Back on the original topic, it was "cognitively" interesting to see what xonotic looks like through the fresh Stermy's eyes. This somehow helped to see the game with a new angle imo. Dunno if other ppl has felt the same.

Actually yes, and I felt reassured again that the structure I use for private newbie tutorials is useful. SOMEONE should have given stermy a private tutorial session before his first match against fisume (I mean, seriously, we have him check out the game and let him play one of the best duellers around as his first game??! Without letting him get into the mechanics of the game?).

I hope stermy will check out Xonotic some more so he can dive deeper into its gameplay.

Sorry to be noobish, but WTF is all this talk of balance? Like a balanced argument?

@Halogene: He was looking for a duel server and fisume was there ("random" haha), screwing around. He asked some stuff and then I played a serious game vs. fisume and not him.

Sorry to be noobish, but WTF is all this talk of balance? Like a balanced argument?

There was constant hell raising on the forum all day every day about the physics and weapon balance (me being the loudest of everybody in this regard) of the game in it's early development stages and the community was very much divided on what direction the game should go in. There's more to it, but I don't feel like posting a wall of text. If you search the forums you'll find NUMEROUS balance and physics arguments leading up until balanceSamual became the game's default balance set in one of the autobuilds before 0.5 came out.

@subzero: I think you are missing kojn's point. He is trying to say that nex/mortar dominates, even under extreme conditions. If someone attacks with 35% mg vs someone that has a nex and mortar that can only hit 25% nex and 15% mortar (given each player has same health/armor), the player with mg should win. However, I can almost guarantee you that the guy with nex/mg will win. Nex/mortar and nex/rl are both rather overpowered combos that win that majority of confrontations against other weapons.

perhaps at some point I can take a break and make a tutorial map.

@subzero: I think you are missing kojn's point. He is trying to say that nex/mortar dominates, even under extreme conditions. If someone attacks with 35% mg vs someone that has a nex and mortar that can only hit 25% nex and 15% mortar (given each player has same health/armor), the player with mg should win. However, I can almost guarantee you that the guy with nex/mg will win. Nex/mortar and nex/rl are both rather overpowered combos that win that majority of confrontations against other weapons.

I moved to "mandatory balance thread" to not mess this one. But it seams I need to answere here.
I would say kojn's missed (or rather omitted) one of my points and you missed/omitted another
1) Nex/mortar, Nex/rl are strong in medium-to-large distance. If you close the distance and put some effort to unpredictable movements, you wont get much (if any) nex damage. In Nexuiz, nex combos are not frequent in face-to-face combat, even though nex is way stronger, does not have recharge and is easier to aim. So it is in fact a case of each weapon combination having its own use - one for close combat and other or distace fighting.
2) Combos are way more difficult than single weapon fighting. Why would you think they should not be more effective in certain situations than other weapons? Why should any weapon you happen to pick up be as good as any other weapon, or combo for that matter, under any combat situation there can be? Why the poor guy, fighting all these opponents for precious combo ingredients (say rl/nex) should be left with no benefits of finally managing to get them ? Why should poor bastard spending hours on mastering fast and precise weapon switches be left with noting ? Or, on a serious note, why would you eliminate combos (that is what will happen if they are slow) and let the game become trivial amo spary?

Or just leave it to distros' package writers.

Yes, leave it to the distros. If we package up builds for eg. Ubuntu it might be specific to one version of Ubuntu, then the next release comes out, it's all broken, dependency chains would be non-existent or broken. The 'RPM-hell' that many people WRONGLY associate as being inherent with RPM, is just what happens when one package isn't in sync with a packaging tree.

If we support Ubuntu, does not mean it'll work on Debian, Mint, GNU/obscure-distro-for-people-called-Brian-who-want-something-just-like-Ubuntu-but-with-a-few-different-packages-and-a-different-wallpaper? Even if they use .deb, you'll end up with broken dependency chains in them most likely. If we do an RPM, is it honestly going to work in all Fedora, CentOS, Mandriva etc. versions? No.

The distros will end up repackaging it anyway if they want it included as the 'official' version will be too broken for their repositories.

So don't. Release the game in an extractable for Linux. If someone wants to package it for their favourite distro, give them the pointers they need to do so but don't expect them to release on the same day.

Don't like your distro not including the latest version of Xonotic? Is there a package maintainer assigned? Think you can help? Why not volunteer? Contact your distro for details.

Is your distro a clearing house for obsolete software? Or maybe they just like aimlessly modifying packages to fit in with some misplaced vision that instability is cool? This is a problem that affects some dsitros and some packages. I gave up on Mandriva many years ago because they just couldn't resist breaking Firefox and OpenOffice.org in every release. If this becomes a problem, maybe switch your distro.

And now this isn't a sodding b*lance thread.

Edit: put a preliminary distro package list up here: http://forums.xonotic.org/showthread.php?tid=2618
Please add.

For those, who doesn't have Facebook, or doesn't follow stermy there:
I've told him about the 1v1 grand final, and invited him to watch it:

Hello stermy! I'm glad you sorta liked Xonotic the last time you checked it. In case you're interested in some real competitive 1v1 game, feel free to check out the upcoming grand final of our first 1v1 online tournament this Sunday, 19.02.2012. 20:00 CET (it's running now since months). You can find more details about the grand final and screencasts/videos about the LB/WB matches here: http://www.xonotic.org/2012/02/tourney-n...nd-finals/
Cheers!

Ha replied today:

yeah I didnt know the game and I gotta say its pretty awesome. I will try and jump in to watch the final but I can't promise, I might be travelling on Sunday

Rock/Paper/Scissors balance of weapons, he was probably expecting a more tiered system like Quake 3 where certain weapons are "better" than others, not UT99's style of balance where weapon effectiveness is based strictly on preference and situation.

"Quake 3 where certain weapons are "better" than others"

What? I`ve played quake live for like 2 years, and a really good player can own with any weapon. No weapon is "better" because it`s all situational. Admittedly someone with a shotgun vs a rocket launcher means that the guy with the rocket launcher has a big advantage, but it doesnt mean that the guy with the shotty can`t win. Even the default (machine gun) can deal some major damage if used well. This applies to Quake 3 as well, since they are essentially the same game.

I would also like to point out I got this game today, and I won my first real game (duel) with 100+ ping. It`s not that hard to pick up so long as you have some experience in arena games, and strafe jumping. I still need practice of course, my rocket jumping isnt amazing, but I can still give medium players a run for their money, even if I`m not the best.

means that the guy with the rocket launcher has a big advantage

And that's why certain weapons are "better" than "others".
Although QuakeLive is pretty well balanced and every weapon has its purpose you need lg for mid-range battles, rail for long range and rl as an all-round tool. In cpma vq3 for example lg was pretty much overpowered and at osp aiming was very ping dependent + hitboxes and balance were different, so it's not really the same game.

What happened to that stream? There are no 3 hour long videos in his playlist.