[SUGGESTION] Ideas for singleplayer gameplay

How about some kind of single player time trial racing. Where you run laps around maps trying to get faster times... would give beginners a chance to practice maneuvering and jumps and teaching them fast ways around a number of courses.

I don't see how we can tie that into a campaign.

I don't see how we can tie that into a campaign.

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I don't see how we can tie that into a campaign.

I think Nevertime's talking about the "Challenges" part of the singleplayer, not the story.

It's a good idea because, as he said, it will help newer players to learn movement techniques.

As long as we actually explain the techniques, sure. But just dropping them onto a track and saying "run lol" isn't a good idea.

As long as we actually explain the techniques, sure. But just dropping them onto a track and saying "run lol" isn't a good idea.

Yeah, it won't be too difficult to make a short tutorial for each technique.

I've been thinking a bit about the story mode. namely, how it would function on a programming level.

Concept:
Basically the story would play out as a series of difference maps of varying game modes, designed specifically so that they tie together. It would be best if these maps are designed to look and feel like different parts of the same area. (You could have 3 or 4 levels that take place on a spaceship, for example. Just in different places on that ship, etc.)

1) These maps would be designed specifically for campaign mode, with a beginning point and an end point. The player spawns at the beginning, and when they reach the end, it loads the next map. However, there would be obstacles in the way, that must be overcome before the next level can be reached. Obstacles could vary from an army of enemies to fight through, to a bomb that must be placed, to an actual physical door, that you need to find a way to open. Anything you can think of.

2) Different game modes would be better for different scenarios, like you could have DM for a section where you have to clear out a host of enemies. ctf could be if you have to get something that belongs to your enemy, and return it to your base. (ctf set to cap limit of 1, your flag is impossible to reach, and the enemy team is massively stacked against you.)
etc. just use your imagination.

3) Also, when coming up with a story, we should keep the limitations of the engine in mind. Darkplaces does not handle large outdoor areas very well, so the story should mostly take place indoors, or among structures. Of course, there could definitely be a few outdoor levels, but they should be kept to a minimum.

4) Story mode and mutiplayer mode should be kept separate. We should not force people making maps for the multiplayer mode to constrain to the setting/style/standards of the story mode. (although it would be nice)

5) Finally, when we go to start working on a campaign, we should select a couple of mappers (contest, maybe?) and have these mappers make the levels for the campaign. The reason is to maintain continuity of style during the campaign. these mappers should also work closely with the art director in terms of story, and with each other to match their styles as closely as possible.


Obviously this is all open to discussion.

4) Story mode and mutiplayer mode should be kept separate. We should not force people making maps for the multiplayer mode to constrain to the setting/style/standards of the story mode. (although it would be nice)

To a degree, yes, but they should share the same universe. Using Will's story, multiplayer gaming could be HFA holoarena training simulations. As for maps, there should be a small core set of stylistically similar maps, but other than that mappers should have creative license.

yeah. multiplayer maps that are included with the xonotic map should share the same universe. maybe we could also have a map pack thats similar.

but if people want to make maps that you download, they can do whatever.

An Unreal Tournament III style single player has more potential in Xonotic than it ever did in UT3 for the simple fact that we have Assault and Onslaught as well as Complete the Stage. Throw in a handful of mutators and a few talented mappers and we got something that Epic never could have dreamed of getting into their disappointment. If I remember correctly there was also vehicle support being worked on in Nexuiz. This would definitely be the best way to set up a single player in my opinion, it would really mostly be customizing map options and getting maps that would be needed and maybe making a hidden mutator (that is active in single player campaign) to playback voice overs, objectives, etc and do other story specific things (such as triggering stuff that normally wouldn't trigger). To my understanding Assault is so flexible that if somebody really wanted to they could make a Turok 2: Seeds of Evil style campaign.

I'm not too sure about connecting CTF/DM/TDM maps for the story, mainly because you have to play against bots, which would have the same health, armour, movement speed and attacking speed as you.

Having something fundamentally different from the game types, or at least a modified version of assault, allows for different types of enemies, like weaker "soldier" enemies and a powerful boss enemy.

I'm not too sure about connecting CTF/DM/TDM maps for the story, mainly because you have to play against bots, which would have the same health, armour, movement speed and attacking speed as you.

I don't understand why you keep saying this. Assault is just about the objective(s) it takes to win that level/round. It's the rule-set that determines when and which side has won.

Coding a mutator that supports different playable/bot "classes" with different health, armor, movement and weapons is a separate task that needs to be handled to make a campaign interesting.

I'm not too sure about connecting CTF/DM/TDM maps for the story, mainly because you have to play against bots, which would have the same health, armour, movement speed and attacking speed as you.

I don't understand why you keep saying this. Assault is just about the objective(s) it takes to win that level/round. It's the rule-set that determines when and which side has won.

Assault doesn't work because:

Assault is also time based and turn based. Each teams takes it in turn to be the attacking and defending sides, and the team who completes the objectives in the shorter amount of time wins. The missions wouldn't have any sort of timer in a map (except for objective specific time limits - see mission #1), and you don't suddenly become the defending side when you finish the objectives - there isn't a defending side! It's just you, against the monsters, with objectives that are for you and you only.

All ideas are good. And more than one can be produced. This is not a Closed Game, but a Open One.
So pick any, one with contributors, and start producing something playable.

All ideas are good. And more than one can be produced. This is not a Closed Game, but a Open One.
So pick any, one with contributors, and start producing something playable.

I suppose the sensible thing to start off with would be the time trials, because they're the most simple.

I'm not too sure about connecting CTF/DM/TDM maps for the story, mainly because you have to play against bots, which would have the same health, armour, movement speed and attacking speed as you.

I don't understand why you keep saying this. Assault is just about the objective(s) it takes to win that level/round. It's the rule-set that determines when and which side has won.

Assault doesn't work because:

Assault is also time based and turn based. Each teams takes it in turn to be the attacking and defending sides, and the team who completes the objectives in the shorter amount of time wins. The missions wouldn't have any sort of timer in a map (except for objective specific time limits - see mission #1), and you don't suddenly become the defending side when you finish the objectives - there isn't a defending side! It's just you, against the monsters, with objectives that are for you and you only.

Make a mutator to skip the defending part and remove the time limit or set it extremely high.

To a degree, yes, but they should share the same universe. Using Will's story, multiplayer gaming could be HFA holoarena training simulations. As for maps, there should be a small core set of stylistically similar maps, but other than that mappers should have creative license.

yeah. multiplayer maps that are included with the xonotic map should share the same universe. maybe we could also have a map pack thats similar.

but if people want to make maps that you download, they can do whatever.

I have, up until now, declined to come in here and burst your bubble, since your delusions are of little consequence, but when talk returns to favoring content which meshes with your fantasy of a single player game, (and discouraging contributions which don't) it's time for a reality check.

The only single player campaign in Xonotic will be bot matches.

There, I said it. I know it's not popular, but it is reality. I don't say it because I think I'm in charge; I know the community is in charge. I say it because, as far as I can see, it is reality, and the community does not have the ability to defy reality. Every open source multiplayer game has a group of fans who spend large amounts of time imagining a single player campaign. And what comes of it? Bot matches. That's all.

Personally I'd be thrilled if the devs decided to make a real single player game. Not that I think it'd make Xonotic any better, I just like single player games and don't like to pay for them. But there are reasons why there aren't many free single player games. The reasons are too complicated to get into and aren't important here. What is important is that the chances of anyone making a single player game as part of the Xonotic project are even slimmer than the chances of making it as a separate project. You should already know this. Weapon balance is different in single player games, gameplay mechanics are different. It's already been said that the player movement characteristics would be different.

It's not just a matter of the work that needs to be done to change these things. Even if you could just snap your fingers and have all that done, there is still the fact that everything in the single player game would be different from the multiplayer game. Single player games rely heavily on having a cohesive concept. Trying to tie everything in to Xonotic where everything is different will only make a single player game harder to create. Xonotic would just be a burden to a single player game, which already has little chance of being made.

If you really want a single player game, why not go make one as a separate project? You could still use any content from Nexuiz or Xonotic where it's convenient. Since any content included with Xonotic will be gpl, there's nothing to stop you from using it in your single player game if you want. Not that you would want to. You'd want different models for the monsters anyway, and different maps with single player objectives, You even want different weapons! So what exactly is it you need from Xonotic that you couldn't use if you just formed your own separate project? The name? What do any of your ideas have to do with Xonotic?

We all know the real reason you're here. You have no coders. You think, if you pretend that your single player vision is somehow an extension of the multiplayer game, you can con somebody into doing the coding for you. It's never worked before, but a man can dream... a man can dream.

@ Contrarian

About damn time somebody came in here and said that.

I have, up until now, declined to come in here and burst your bubble, since your delusions are of little consequence, but when talk returns to favoring content which meshes with your fantasy of a single player game, (and discouraging contributions which don't) it's time for a reality check.

The only single player campaign in Xonotic will be bot matches.

There, I said it. I know it's not popular, but it is reality. I don't say it because I think I'm in charge; I know the community is in charge. I say it because, as far as I can see, it is reality, and the community does not have the ability to defy reality. Every open source multiplayer game has a group of fans who spend large amounts of time imagining a single player campa...

blah, blah, blah...

I disagree entirely.

This thread is not the only singleplayer thread. I refer you this thread, where you can burst more delusions. Also you should see this thread, which is a competition for the plot of the story. Obviously I'm not the only one with "delusions."

The two posts you quoted are not my opinion, and incidentally I do not agree with them. Mappers for multiplayer should be free to be a creative as they like.
I have no interest in the story side of singleplayer, and am happy to let someone else do it. How would "time trials" or independent missions discourage people from making multiplayer maps? Personally, I disagree with having a fixed universe for EVERYTHING.

If you really want a single player game, why not go make one as a separate project?

Because tutorial missions will hardly make sense without the multiplayer, will they?

I'd have to design my own menus and HUDs if I were to start my own project and I'll have to publicise it well enough to get enough users to make it worthwhile. Then, content for singleplayer will eventually run out. The story ends, all the missions have been completed, and the player will just stop playing the game. In Xonotic, however, players will have the multiplayer to play.

You even want different weapons!

Not completely. I'll go with the weapons that are released with Xonotic 1.0

We all know the real reason you're here. You have no coders.

Obviously, yes. I'm not denying that I need help, so how is that a "con"? A single person cannot make an entire game on their own. If singleplayer is going to work, it has to be a team effort.


I think you haven't read my thread thoroughly enough. You're assuming that I want to write an extended story mode with a complete plot. That is not what I want to do. Since you haven't worked it out already, I'll tell you again: I want to improve and extend the style of bot matches that exist in Nexuiz, and to make a couple of independent mission maps (which only give around 10 minutes of gameplay each), which are, at most, modified Assault maps.

I have, up until now, declined to come in here and burst your bubble, since your delusions are of little consequence, but when talk returns to favoring content which meshes with your fantasy of a single player game, (and discouraging contributions which don't) it's time for a reality check.

The only single player campaign in Xonotic will be bot matches.

There, I said it. I know it's not popular, but it is reality. I don't say it because I think I'm in charge; I know the community is in charge. I say it because, as far as I can see, it is reality, and the community does not have the ability to defy reality. Every open source multiplayer game has a group of fans who spend large amounts of time imagining a single player campa...

blah, blah, blah...

I disagree entirely.

This thread is not the only singleplayer thread. I refer you this thread, where you can burst more delusions. Also you should see this thread, which is a competition for the plot of the story. Obviously I'm not the only one with "delusions."

It's only 7 AM here, and I want to nominate you for non-sequitur of the day.

The two posts you quoted are not my opinion, and incidentally I do not agree with them. Mappers for multiplayer should be free to be a creative as they like.
I have no interest in the story side of singleplayer, and am happy to let someone else do it. How would "time trials" or independent missions discourage people from making multiplayer maps? Personally, I disagree with having a fixed universe for EVERYTHING.

It's nothing personal against you, or your ideas. As I said, I didn't want to come in here and squash all these great ideas, unlikely as they may be to ever come to fruition. But when the singleplayer parasite begins to turn against the multiplayer project, The best way I know to prevent harm being done, is to shine the light of reality in here. The two posts I quoted were the reason I had to rain on your parade. I'm sorry that the truth hurts you, but I believe it is unavoidable.

If you really want a single player game, why not go make one as a separate project?

Because tutorial missions will hardly make sense without the multiplayer, will they?

Ok, I'll grant, the tutorial thing would be good for Xonotic, and might actually happen in some limited fashion. But there's still a history to look at. It is no coincidence that the tutorial that came with Nexuiz was, to put it politely, anything but a polished product.

I'd have to design my own menus and HUDs if I were to start my own project

Other than photoshopping the name of your choice over Xonotic... not really.

I'll have to publicise it well enough to get enough users to make it worthwhile.

Again, not really. There really are VERY few open source single player games. If you can get even close to a playable game, you'd only have to post about it here, and I promise, word would get out.

Then, content for singleplayer will eventually run out. The story ends, all the missions have been completed, and the player will just stop playing the game. In Xonotic, however, players will have the multiplayer to play.

You said it... not me. This is one big reason why there is little support for open source single player games.

We all know the real reason you're here. You have no coders.

Obviously, yes. I'm not denying that I need help, so how is that a "con"? A single person cannot make an entire game on their own. If singleplayer is going to work, it has to be a team effort.

The con, is when, instead of putting together a team who wants to make the game you're thinking of, you try to graft your concept onto something completely different in the hopes that the devs will be fooled into contributing to a completely separate project. The honest approach would be to ask around for anyone with the skills, time and interest in helping you with your completely unrelated game. But we all know the answer you would get: 'Singleplayer?... No.'

I think you haven't read my thread thoroughly enough. You're assuming that I want to write an extended story mode with a complete plot. That is not what I want to do. Since you haven't worked it out already, I'll tell you again: I want to improve and extend the style of bot matches that exist in Nexuiz, and to make a couple of independent mission maps (which only give around 10 minutes of gameplay each), which are, at most, modified Assault maps.

I've read quite closely. Again, I have nothing against you or your ideas. That's why I didn't post in this thread until I saw the two posts I quoted. I don't even have a problem with the devs dividing their time between Xonotic and your single player game, but every time this attempt to generate single player becomes an unnecessary burden on the Xonotic project. Every time I see effort being wasted trying to graft two unrelated projects together, I will come in here to prevent it. And every time I do, the hard light of reality will come with me. Avert your eyes if you must.

I really do believe that xonotic could pull this off, but not if half the people post about all their amazing impossible ideas, and the other half tells them that everything they are saying is impossible and totally discard the whole concept.

if we could get over that, this might actually have a chance.

The con, is when, instead of putting together a team who wants to make the game you're thinking of, you try to graft your concept onto something completely different in the hopes that the devs will be fooled into contributing to a completely separate project. The honest approach would be to ask around for anyone with the skills, time and interest in helping you with your completely unrelated game. But we all know the answer you would get: 'Singleplayer?... No.'

I still don't understand why you think I'm conning people. You write as if you think I'm trying to "fool" the devs into doing everything for me. What made you conclude that? The only instance where I have asked for something is this:

I'd be happy to code them myself, but I know almost nothing about quake code If someone can teach me, I'd be very grateful

I don't even have a problem with the devs dividing their time between Xonotic and your single player game, but every time this attempt to generate single player becomes an unnecessary burden on the Xonotic project. Every time I see effort being wasted trying to graft two unrelated projects together, I will come in here to prevent it. And every time I do, the hard light of reality will come with me. Avert your eyes if you must.

Why would this singleplayer be "an unnecessary burden on the Xonotic project", when the devs will probably not be working on it?

You seem to think you've got the ultimate authority on what "reality" is or isn't. You're saying things like "the hard light of reality will come with me" or my "fantasy of a single player game", as if you're completely correct and I'm completely wrong. Well, at least consider the possibility that you're wrong. You are not infallible. Of course, neither am I, but what I'm trying to say is that you should be more open-minded.

Practicing with laptos on areas withoth intenet seems like a good idea.

Contrarian, what is your issue? You come into this thread, which is not interfering with main xonotic development, and start telling everyone that this whole thing is pointless.
Of course campaign mode will be bot matches, that's why it's singleplayer - "single", and "player" - there's one player! Everyone else is a bot!

At this point, there isn't much more I can say without repeating myself. If you want to know what my 'issue' is, you'll have to actually read what I wrote. You don't even have to agree with it. But if you want to know why I am spoiling your fun, asking over and over won't do any good when you won't read the answer. It's right there at the top of my first post in this thread.

It's not surprising that you won't allow yourself to see it, but it is disappointing, because if you keep making the same mistake, I will have to come back again and again. I don't want to have to do that because I don't want to be any more of a party pooper than I have to. For that same reason, I'm also not going to keep repeating myself over and over in the faint hope you might actually read it.

If you dont have anything positive to say, dont say anything at all.

Maybe we enjoy creating our false hope and getting the ball rolling with some ideas. Either contribute constructively or not at all, please. If you have an idea we are happy to have it but dont come in and just shoot everything down.