[SUGGESTION] Make weapons equally matched

When I stated playing nexuiz around 2.2 version.
What made me enjoy the game was that the weapons were almost equally matched (hit point,timing of weapon fire, and aim).
Now a days with nexuiz 2.4 and 2.5.2 everyone just likes using the nex, and it has lost that enjoyment of knowing that no matter what weapon you have, you have the possibility of fragging your enemy.

But version after version, the railgun was nerfed in damage and force. The main differences between 2.2 and later :
- antilag for hitscan weapons, which make it a little fairer between player connexion and ping.
- the average player base level improved with a better accuracy, use of weapon combos like rail + mortar, and moving faster.
- the maps played in ctf are more often open (like space floaters), badly balanced (full of ammo items with all weapons available), and overcrowded.

The difficulty is to have a balance working for ctf and dm, I don't see any easy solution without alienating a gametype. (My preference is a DM based balance with suitable maps for the other gamemodes).

Actually its a really really bad idea to make weapons equally matched! There is a saying: Only a fool attacks a stronger opponent.
And to some extent the same goes to a equally strong opponent. So in order to get things going, and action full there NEEDS to be a disbalance among weapons (or health/armor status at least). This does not mean to only have one strong gun, but that each gun has its OWN advantages depending on situation. For example the mortar is a quite good allaround weapon but it looses to the electro for single-damage output (combo) or the minsta gun for range.
And you also have players that favor different styles. Some like to attack, some are more cautious and thus favor different guns. So at some point they will feel stronger then their opponent and thats the time they choose to attack. (or should..) To counter that one can try to keep them away from their favorite guns.. and thus you get a totally flexible game and lots of action. If all guns were to be more similar you would loose this potential.

And honestly the guns in Nexuiz were never that close to each other.. People might just love the antilag feature more now then in the past :-)

I find that at high levels of play and player aim, it is actually the MG that is 'broken'. Although it is also harder to use properly than nearly any other weapon so this makes a bit of sense

What's the point in having the same gun with just another model?
If you match the weapon fire time, there would be no strategy.

In terms of the machinegun, I think for Xonotic it should be completely replaced. It just has too many people complaining about it.

The only way to solve the issue for it is to add recoil. Which I've said before. It stops people just spraying it, they are going to have to burst fire unless at extreme close range.

I agree completely with what esteel said on this.

You know in ctf when you die and you respawn, you have to rush to get a good weapon, because you have to get ready asap to attack or get back in position to defend, or whatever you place you need to be? That is a huge part of what makes ctf work, or any gamemode in fact. I agree it might not be perfect yet, but balancing equally every weapon is not the solution, it would only make things worse. If you were just to pickup the closest weapon everytime you spawn to be ready to attack, that breaks gameplay.

For example in CTF, when an attacker manages to kill a few enemies in enemy base, that gives him just enough time to pickup the flag and run away with it before the dead players respawn and are ready to attack again, because depending on where they spawn, they might not have a strong weapon that close. There is a whole strategy in this and how it affects teamwork, hell, this is what makes teamwork needed. You remove that, then gameplay becomes a complete spammy mess where people pickup any weapon and spam. You can't just think about yourself, sure it's annoying to die and respawn and repeat the cycle of getting items to prepare, but that's what this game is all about. The need for strong weapons and items is what makes players move around the map, it's not just about getting kills.

There's a reason why people say item placement is very important in maps. It's actually very hard to get right. You can't put too many strong weapons and megas too close to the flag or that makes it too easy to defend, nor too few because it would be to easy for attackers. Then you have to balance player spawns around the base and check what would be the possible routes they'd take to get a weapon, etc. Unfortunately not a lot of map makers get this right. Public servers have a lot of maps with good potential, imo I say item placement on maps is what needs to be fixed, not weapon balance.

There seems to be a trend these days with big open maps in nexuiz, but nexuiz weapons, to me anyway, never seemed to have been made for that. So what is happening now is that less experienced players will always prefer those big open maps because they can get a nex and shoot at enemies from far away, never really getting "into the action", add to that the strong players with crazy aim, it does make quite a mess sometimes on those maps. Players with crazy aim will hit you no matter how fast you are when you're trying to get from one base to the other, and you'll get hit by campers (that are sitting in their own base) while you're picking items in your own base when you're trying to prepare before attacking. Basically, you're constantly a target no matter where you are. It is the responsibility of the map makers to think about things like this. I've always been against big open maps for this reason, but that's just personal preference, I still think map makers could find ways to fix this and I would be fine with those maps. All I'm saying is, look at the big picture, it's just simply a question of weapon balance.

If all the weapons were balanced I would be god with my laser, and that just wouldn't be right. There's something altogether thrilling about rushing towards a Nexer with nothing but my ability to move around him and bounce him to throw off his aim until I can finally chip his health down to 0. Balancing the weapons would remove that, and completely ruin my style of gameplay.

This was meant to be a quick response, but quickly spun into me breaking down each weapon's function. In short the weapons SHOULD BE BALANCED AGAINST ONE ANOTHER IN A ROCK/PAPER/SCISSORS FASHION.

All the weapons in the game should be balanced in a rock/paper/scissors fashion where each one has it's own situations (shotgun and laser excluded) where they have an advantage. For example the Hagar's best use is when you knock somebody against a wall, while the Crylink's best use is spamming around corners. The Electro is extremely useful for quick get aways as well clearing out a corridor and the Rocket Launcher is more useful for attacking further away targets. Also I find that even the Nex and Camping Rifle can be well balanced as well and find that the rifle is more rewarding to use than the Nex if you have the skill level, but the Nex may be more suited if you know you won't have the time to reload and don't have the precision to land a headshot. As for the Machine Gun and HLAC the machine gun is supposed to be a semi-precise spam weapon that is good if you can land most of the shots while the HLAC is the weapon of choice for spammers and is also devastating if you can land most of the shots. As far as the shotgun and laser are concerned, the laser is a movement/getaway type weapon that should serve as your last resort and the shotty should be the easiest weapon to use in most situations, but NEVER the best weapon to use.

I agree with Lee. Each weapon must be strong, yet weak. However, there shouldn't be such preposterous advantages where a pro with weapon A can't frag a noob with weapon B.
About the rifle and the nex, I find the rifle projectile is "thinner" and you must be more accurate with it than the nex.

nifrek summed it up nicely imo.

The other problem is that if you have a strong weapon then everyone goes/uses that weapon only.
Like the nex right know in nexuiz, most everyone goes for that weapon only.
And if you have that then all servers should be with Minsta active, and that gets very boring real fast.

There has to be a mid point.

The good players don't always go for the nex. A good player is well rounded with all weapons. I am good with the nex but it is not all that I use. I enjoy the mortar, rocket, electro, and even the mg sometimes.

That's great, for you....
I also use diff weapons, but it isn't fun when you have someone like trevor, or coolballs that have fast computers/grfx and sit there and shoot people with the nex.
On the other hand, I don't use the nex that often, because my computer is slow.

Maybe there shouldn't be a weapon that fires accurate to infinity like the nex.
Maybe take out the nex and have the 50cal sniper rifle, then apply real(game) physics to the bullets.

I vote no to that. Just because some people aren't good with the nex is no reason to remove it. There are other ways of preventing camping.

Here's a repost of my weapons breakdown. This explains the role of each weapon. If the weapons are correctly tweaked and actually made to do the role I placed on here then we would have a true rock/paper/scissors balance.

Blaster (Laser): Mostly used in movement, last resort weapons

Tactical Shotgun (Shotgun): Starter weapon, useful in most situations, but NEVER the best weapon to use

Heavy Streetsweeper (Super Shotgun, based off an idea by C Brutail, NOT IN THIS GAME AT THE MOMENT): Flak Cannon primary/Skedar Reaper. Devastating at close range, but useless in just about in any other situation. Holding the secondary will proceed to unload the weapon at an alarming rate, making it useful for breaking out of crowds. The longer the secondary is held, the more screwed up the accuracy. A single secondary shot does less damage than a primary shot.

Machine Gun: General purpose fully automatic weapon. Can do significant damage if most shots are landed. Secondary fires gun at a slow fire rate, but fires accurately.

Camping Rifle: The harder to use, yet more rewarding of the far range weapons. It can punch through some objects and do a lot of damage if a shot is connected with somebody's head. Secondary is a panic-fire mode that will unload the magazine quickly if held.

Mortar: Lee_Stricklin's personal favorite. A fun to use nade launcher. Primary fires a grenade that explodes on impact while the secondary will bounce them around a bit. Good for juggling opponents and knocking people around.

Hagar: An often overestimated spam weapon. It's best use is knocking someone into a wall or corner.

Electro: An extremely good weapon for clearing hall ways and running away.

Crylink: A good splash weapon. It's extremely useful around corners and for getting opponents trying to hide.

HLAC: General purpose spam weapon.

Rocket Launcher: This needs no introduction. Can be guided by holding primary and detonated with secondary.

Rail Gun (Nex): The more dominant of the long range weapons. This one is a hit scan weapon with a low fire rate but capable of doing great damage.

I think most people don't under stand "equally matched" weapons.
Maybe I should come up with numbers this weekend so people can understand more of what I am talking about.

But I will use the list above as an example.

I think most people don't under stand "equally matched" weapons.
Maybe I should come up with numbers this weekend so people can understand more of what I am talking about.

But I will use the list above as an example.

You should do that, but I still don't think this is a good idea. Every weapon should have weak points and strong points. You can't practically match the weapons because the fire method is really different.

Lee_Stricklin sees a need for a close-in weapon, ignoring the fact that we already have one! He keeps saying:

"Tactical Shotgun (Shotgun): Starter weapon, useful in most situations, but NEVER the best weapon to use"

The shotgun is a devastating close-in weapon, as it should be. It is a great equalizer in melees, a good finishing weapon at close and medium ranges, and has another important purpose in balancing the game: it gives a newly spawned player some defense against being spawn raped. Of course, having someone spawn next to you right after you triumphed but nearly died in a tough firefight with them sucks, but avoiding spawn points is another part of strategy. A couple seconds respawn delay can help here.

Spawning players with only a very weak weapon has been discussed and rejected before. The shotgun should indeed be the best at something, regardless of the fact you spawn with it.

Lee_Stricklin sees a need for a close-in weapon, ignoring the fact that we already have one! He keeps saying:

"Tactical Shotgun (Shotgun): Starter weapon, useful in most situations, but NEVER the best weapon to use"

The shotgun is a devastating close-in weapon, as it should be. It is a great equalizer in melees, a good finishing weapon at close and medium ranges, and has another important purpose in balancing the game: it gives a newly spawned player some defense against being spawn raped. Of course, having someone spawn next to you right after you triumphed but nearly died in a tough firefight with them sucks, but avoiding spawn points is another part of strategy. A couple seconds respawn delay can help here.

Spawning players with only a very weak weapon has been discussed and rejected before. The shotgun should indeed be the best at something, regardless of the fact you spawn with it.

Everything in 2.5.2 is broken. In 2.4 the shotgun was a very well balanced weapon, a little on the weak side, but balanced. It was useful in more situations than any other weapon, but was never the strongest one to use. I'm going by 2.4.2 weapon balance because it was the least screwed up of all the version I played and I think Xonotic should balanced similar to 2.4.2. Right now the only weapons that feel right to me are the grenade launcher, the electro (maybe), and the hagar.

I don't understand. The weapons seem pretty well balanced now. They only thing I don't agree with is how much the shotty moves you. If I'm moving in air and I'm shot by a shotty and I go flying in the opposite direction, I think that's too much.

Lee_Stricklin sees a need for a close-in weapon, ignoring the fact that we already have one! He keeps saying:

"Tactical Shotgun (Shotgun): Starter weapon, useful in most situations, but NEVER the best weapon to use"

The shotgun is a devastating close-in weapon, as it should be. It is a great equalizer in melees, a good finishing weapon at close and medium ranges, and has another important purpose in balancing the game: it gives a newly spawned player some defense against being spawn raped. Of course, having someone spawn next to you right after you triumphed but nearly died in a tough firefight with them sucks, but avoiding spawn points is another part of strategy. A couple seconds respawn delay can help here.

Spawning players with only a very weak weapon has been discussed and rejected before. The shotgun should indeed be the best at something, regardless of the fact you spawn with it.

Everything in 2.5.2 is broken. In 2.4 the shotgun was a very well balanced weapon, a little on the weak side, but balanced. It was useful in more situations than any other weapon, but was never the strongest one to use. I'm going by 2.4.2 weapon balance because it was the least screwed up of all the version I played and I think Xonotic should balanced similar to 2.4.2. Right now the only weapons that feel right to me are the grenade launcher, the electro (maybe), and the hagar.

I'm quoting my own post, I know. Just wanted to point out the fact that the shotgun hasn't even been the most useful weapon even at close range due to the capability of the machine gun.

Yeah, I think the shotgun has some funky range... On blockscape I was hit from half way across the map with the shotgun repeatedly. The spread needs to be increased I think and the damage lessened over a distance.

I already forgot who said replace the nex with a realistic gun that has bullet drop; ITS NEXUIZ! Sense when is this game realistic? If so lets take on the lasers in general and forget playing in space and bunny hopping. Who needs shields right? Sorry if It seems like I was trolling but come on..

Lee is right though, the guns in 2.4 were just right. All I'd like were new skins and get rid of the fricken machine gun and nerf the damn crylink.

Hmm. Weapons shouldnt be the same with the same strength.

What needs to be done is to replace machine guns in ctf and to lower the damage of the shotgun! (Nexgun range dependence? Some servers <[NL]Simba> have something like that.)

Rock paper scissors balance is something that I'm against. Each weapon should be good to counter other ones.

MG shouldn't be replaced, just toned down. SG spread should be elevated, and then maybe we won't need to change the damage.
Nex should not have damage falloff, instead ~100 damage, but maybe push falloff.