Replacing spawn weapons

+ CuBe0wL and Samual can compromise on this Tongue

Heh.

Since newego4 forgot to add my idea, I'm adding it myself:

• Possible system 4: Current laser primary stays, current shotgun primary moved to laser secondary, melee gets it's own weapon.
+ One spawn weapon
+ Makes juggling, lasering easy and what antibody mentioned about muscle memory
+ Makes new players aware of the importance of laser (distinctive part of this game) when put in primary and make use of it without switching
- New weapon model
- Yet have to come up with a good melee function

An idea for a melee would be a knife slash preferably by the hand that's not holding the weapon, makes it easier than slapping nex, tuba, mortar whatever and needs one animation. The bind for it would be the vacated bind used by shotgun b4.

In warsow also a player starts with a laser looking weapon so its not too strange to have laser in the primary.

since everyone thinks their idea is the best, I IMHO think that my idea is simplest and the best

Since newego4 forgot to add my idea, I'm adding it myself:

• Possible system 4: Current laser primary stays, current shotgun primary moved to laser secondary, melee gets it's own weapon.
+ One spawn weapon
+ Makes juggling, lasering easy and what antibody mentioned about muscle memory
+ Makes new players aware of the importance of laser (distinctive part of this game) when put in primary and make use of it without switching
- New weapon model
- Yet have to come up with a good melee function

An idea for a melee would be a knife slash preferably by the hand that's not holding the weapon, makes it easier than slapping nex, tuba, mortar whatever and needs one animation. The bind for it would be the vacated bind used by shotgun b4.

In warsow also a player starts with a laser looking weapon so its not too strange to have laser in the primary.

since everyone thinks their idea is the best, I IMHO think that my idea is simplest and the best

I Like your idea a lot actually, except for the knife slash part. Sure, that would be easier to implement, but I just don't feel it fits Xonotic. I know the separate melee weapon idea has been the norm since Quake and UT, and some people are probably ready for a change from it. But I get excited at the idea of having a new weapon in the game that has the potential to not only be a sweet melee weapon, but also has the possibility to do something really useful with the alt fire.

UT has done that since the beginning, and the shield gun proved to be an extremely useful tool for several reasons. That shield changed the way the game was played. And the UT3 impact hammer stole powerups and even countered vehicles trying to run you over.

Perhaps Xonotic doesn't need any more features. We can't be certain unless we weigh the possibilities.

...

This is system 3 with primary and secondary swapped, which as has already been said, is negotiable/ already changeable via aliases. Also, like 3, this system would have two weapons, not one, because "melee gets it's own weapon."

You guys seem to be escalating a misunderstanding. Are we reading the same thread?

Samual is not suggesting tossing the laser. He's suggesting removing the shotgun from normal play (adding it to a mutator), and modifying the laser to make it a viable starting weapon in its own right.

Quit reading replies first and read the friggin' opening post.

Oh and Sam, for the record. I hate the idea of shockwave weapons, especially as a jumping mechanism. UT3 anyone? Uhg.

What I am missing is a valid reason to drastically change the spawn weapons in the first place. We just built up a player base, managed to attract a reasonable amount of Nexuiz players even though some of them still have concerns about Xonotic gameplay, and now we are planning to fundamentally change one of the core elements of Xonotic/Nexuiz gameplay, the laser.

I think it's very likely, if not obvious, that this will lead to disapproval by a lot of people that are actually playing this game at this moment. What reasons are there that outweigh the disadvantages of redesigning core elements of gameplay?

Actually it's not the laser getting changed but the shotgun. From reading Samual posts I assume Laserjump + juggeling functionality will still be there. I think you are overreacting a bit here, calling it a fundamental change of gameplay.

#3: The attack as primary and the jumping as secondary is negotiable, it could just as easily be reversed -- I can also even make a client side option for it to be reversed, so any client can choose what they want. I just thought that "attack" would be most logical to a new player on primary. of course other people would rather stick to their habit of using primary to jump with, which is fine. To clarify though, keep refering to primary and secondary like I have stated in the original post.. this will avoid confusion.

#4: It is possible to still have juggling-- I may have a way where this still works and I'll still be able to fit melee into it... but it's difficult to describe, i'll have to code it and show it to you guys.

Actually it's not the laser getting changed but the shotgun. From reading Samual posts I assume Laserjump + juggeling functionality will still be there. I think you are overreacting a bit here, calling it a fundamental change of gameplay.

#3: The attack as primary and the jumping as secondary is negotiable, it could just as easily be reversed -- I can also even make a client side option for it to be reversed, so any client can choose what they want. I just thought that "attack" would be most logical to a new player on primary. of course other people would rather stick to their habit of using primary to jump with, which is fine. To clarify though, keep refering to primary and secondary like I have stated in the original post.. this will avoid confusion.

#4: It is possible to still have juggling-- I may have a way where this still works and I'll still be able to fit melee into it... but it's difficult to describe, i'll have to code it and show it to you guys.

and Shotgun (made redundant by spawn weapon, possibly will be re-made into a powerful shotgun) will never be available in normal gameplay anymore.

Essentially the idea is to transform the laser (renamed into a new weapon) into a sort of energy shockwave type of weapon... Primary shoots a mid-to-long range attack of energy, replacing the functionality of the shotgun primary in current balance..

Your point is? How I understand it:
Spawnweapon primary: Laser, for jumping around like usual
Spawnweapon secondary: Chargeable shockwave, combining shotgun primary and secondary
primary <-> secondary can be switched clientside

Right now it's not the shotgun or laser merging that pokes the eye, most of us can agree on that and also might on the removal of shotgun ammo, but the removal or redesign of the currently well working, and not to mention FUN melee attack.

Also, http://forums.xonotic.org/showthread.php...9#pid40479 nowego came here up with some mighty fine points.

Right now it's not the shotgun or laser merging that pokes the eye, most of us can agree on that and also might on the removal of shotgun ammo, but the removal or redesign of the currently well working, and not to mention FUN melee attack.

Fun -- ok, can't argue that because it's highly personal.
Working very well -- I tend to disagree because of different reasons:
1) Logic: Why can I only slap with the shotgun?
2) Logic: Why does slapping someone with the shotgun deals such an enormous amount of damage, comparable to getting a direct hit with a rocket?
3) Graphics: The slap animation is not in sync with the actual attack speed
4) Network issues: Because of antilag it often feels as if the melee attack has a range of 1-3 meters, depending on your own and your opponents ping
5) Balance: 80dmg is very high compared to other weapons, I personally don't see how such a high damage output can be justified for a spawnweapon

Also, http://forums.xonotic.org/showthread.php...9#pid40479 nowego came here up with some mighty fine points.

Maybe it's just me but I think his view on gameplay sounds quite boring:

I find myself running around a lot with just shotgun/laser during CTF

1: That's why I say let it has it's own weapon. An energy club, mace, minime, dunno.
2: Every melee attack in every game gives enormous damage, like quake3 gauntlet, or ut impact hammer (charged to max.) It is a reward for getting into a fairly dangerous situation: letting the enemy near yourself, or sneeking on it.
3: This is a bug in that case. If you knew about it already (I couldn't see it personally), why didn't you report it on the tracker?
4: Bug again, so the tracing has to be done in a different way. Dunno, I'm not a coder.
5: Same question and same reason as 2.

Also, you either didn't read the whole reply, or I linked the wrong one (and it was not nowego, but freefang )
Lemme quote him:

"The function and limitations of a shotgun is very recognizable from nearly any other shooter experience of the new player, and the function of the secondary is easy to figure out trough the animation. The laser is less self-explanatory, but when someone figures out the primary is a splash projectile they will quickly grasp how they could use it."

How about:

primary - shotgun like
secondary - melee + laser at once. Weapon fires laser-like shot with all its aspects, extending stabbing part at the same time.

Pros:
+no functionality is effectively lost
+all combined into one weapon
+no extra buttons required
Cons:
-Melee would result in some self damage (well, maybe unless some workaround checking for range was coded)
-Stabbing doesn't quite pass for "trouting".
Other:
*Melee hit would knock enemy back (not sure if this is a con at all, may be a pro - it is a significant game changer anyway)
*No charging (but charging isn't universally beloved idea anyway, so I'm not sure if it's a con)

1: That's why I say let it has it's own weapon. An energy club, mace, minime, dunno.
2: Every melee attack in every game gives enormous damage, like quake3 gauntlet, or ut impact hammer (charged to max.) It is a reward for getting into a fairly dangerous situation: letting the enemy near yourself, or sneeking on it.
3: This is a bug in that case. If you knew about it already (I couldn't see it personally), why didn't you report it on the tracker?
4: Bug again, so the tracing has to be done in a different way. Dunno, I'm not a coder.
5: Same question and same reason as 2.

2: In quake3 it's 50dmg, that's half of what rocket and rail (both 100dmg) deal there. The impact hammer is a nice example because you have to charge it to deal a reasonable amount of damage. That's not comparable to instahit 80dmg either.

4: We need divverent to commentate on this but I think it's rather a limitation of the current antilag system than a bug

5: Not the same, a weapon can fit into the balance but doesn't make sense logically. For example if we follow FrutieX's approach of giving every weapon a melee attack, that attack could be balanced very well with an artificial delay but for players it wouldn't make much sense to wait N time units after pressing the attack button before the playermodel reacts.

"The function and limitations of a shotgun is very recognizable from nearly any other shooter experience of the new player, and the function of the secondary is easy to figure out trough the animation. The laser is less self-explanatory, but when someone figures out the primary is a splash projectile they will quickly grasp how they could use it."

Well you can twist things till they fit your view
"shotgun is very recognizable from nearly any other shooter experience"
That's a plus now? In other discussions being close to other shooters was rated very negatively.

"but when someone figures out the primary is a splash projectile they will quickly grasp how they could use it"
I've yet to see a new player who discovers that on his own. Luckily most older players are helpful and give a short introduction when they spot a newbie, but that doesn't make it easy to grasp.

I think it's fair that melee deals a lot of damage, because you can counter someone running straght towards you with ANY of the weapons available in Xonotic. It's *hard* to hit a good player with melee.

2: In quake3 it's 50dmg, that's half of what rocket and rail (both 100dmg) deal there. The impact hammer is a nice example because you have to charge it to deal a reasonable amount of damage. That's not comparable to instahit 80dmg either.

If we're comparing things to other games, here's a typical melee weapon from Team Fortress 2: http://wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/Bottle

Amount of HP (there's no concept of armor in TF2) are actually quite comparable to Xonotic, and it deals 65 damage for a normal hit, and 195 for a critical hit (about 10% chance of that happening).

Plus, instead of running towards an enemy you can just do this: http://youtu.be/jm-aBVxVPcs :p

And a last thing, isn't the "refire rate" on the q3 gauntlet pretty darn fast compared to our melee? It only makes sense that it does lower damage then... Although sure, 80 might be a little on the big side, but don't make it useless!

4: We need divverent to commentate on this but I think it's rather a limitation of the current antilag system than a bug

Yeah, nothing that can be done about that as far as I know.

5: Not the same, a weapon can fit into the balance but doesn't make sense logically. For example if we follow FrutieX's approach of giving every weapon a melee attack, that attack could be balanced very well with an artificial delay but for players it wouldn't make much sense to wait N time units after pressing the attack button before the playermodel reacts.

It does not have to be *that* long! We can make this delay unnoticable AND balance the melee out by reducing damage if that's really even needed!



Don't remove trouting! :<

Can someone please just tell me as if I was a 5-year-old WHY the changes need to be made in the first place? I still miss a reason that is somewhat comprehensible to me...

And a last thing, isn't the "refire rate" on the q3 gauntlet pretty darn fast compared to our melee? It only makes sense that it does lower damage then... Although sure, 80 might be a little on the big side, but don't make it useless!

Actually, it fires continuously, you just hold fire down, and when it connects, BAM, 50 dmg. No pesky timing issues, only problem is it knocks enemy back so you need to close the distance at least twice.

And IIRC UT melee guns (both hammer primary and shield gun primary) release automatically when charged and you make a contact with a guy. So you don't worry about timing, only about closing the distance.

Can someone please just tell me as if I was a 5-year-old WHY the changes need to be made in the first place? I still miss a reason that is somewhat comprehensible to me...

It's because some CAN!
It has to do with the space-time continuum. In a place of linear time, some people have difficulties accepting something is good "as it is". While time is proceeding, some entities feel that there are changes to be made. So they change.
Remember Adam and Eve?

Prepare for doom!


<<sry - could not resist>>
And yes, i still miss the point that changes need to be done.

Can someone please just tell me as if I was a 5-year-old WHY the changes need to be made in the first place? I still miss a reason that is somewhat comprehensible to me...

5 year olds shouldn't play Xonotic.
Serious answer: you got to understand the big picture. Xonotic 1.0 shall be a mature product and its weapon system should feature a clear concept. That means, no redundancy but simplicity and no illogical stuff that makes the game difficult to understand for newbies.

the shotgun is the only weapon that can slap because ...

Its small - lightweight - and has a big triangle block on the end !

why am I the only one that sees this ...

... and no I think it is very well/mature/functioning as it is...

with the exception of ... I cant change my laser color ...

That means, no redundancy but simplicity and no illogical stuff [...]

Thing is, propositions that go here have little to do with simplicity, lack of redundancy or logic. It looks like the whole functionality is to be preserved, except its going to be squeezed into a complex spawn weapon and sold with new gfx effects. Now for that, I don't see any reason except, perhaps, desire to have something that looks brand new.

If the goal is to have simplicity, logic and lack of redundancy then its the functionality that should be cut. And I belive there are avenues for that. Regarding spawn weapon, I think either shotgun primary or melee should go. Which one of these, is a matter of testing the gameplay with relevant changes.

WTF people are arguing with logic now, where we blast ourselves around with rockets and the push force of laser beams on free floating space stations made of rusty steel and wood in the middle of the void that you FALL into?

Oh, are you deleting Xoylent from the map pool too, then? o.O

No, but seriously, I think Xonotic already HAS a really well thought-out weapon system. I don't see the redundancy of shotgun to any weapon so far... and the same goes for the laser. In my humble opinion we should look at what we've got, what works well, and identify where we can improve it. The laser is at its current stage just perfect. If anything, it could use some more push force against enemies and less damage (I KNOW everybody disapproves). If the laser goes or turns into some sort of short range energy blob, I will be one very sad lamp. :o(

... I approve of more push and less damage ...

I'm against a change for the same reasons as C.Brutail worte in the first post.

Additionally, you shouldnt forget the weapon balance has been changed constantly throughout all the classic nexuiz releases. And that was what reduced the amount of nexuiz players over years.
It would be too bad to see that happen to xonotic by now. In 0.1beta there were balancing issues, there was the possibility to change the system to the proposed one.

Im trying to stay out of this but i just cant stfu on a few points.

Statements along the lines of "two weapons are confusing for new players" or "newb's will be so baffled to laser-jumps" seem like a insult to most new ppl. sure it could take a game or two to grasp the concepts.. but come on, if above are real issues.. the kci is more faulty then the game

Also there is a con of every sort of split/mash-up/mix/remove of weapons and weapon function:
While current way is far from perfect, its a system that works and everyone who play the game know how it works. Its very likely that substantial change to the spawn weapons has enough unexpected side-effects to make the current balance lopsided again. I would advocate caution with the core balance atm as it (before this batch of threads at least) finally seemed to have arrived at something that did not provoke constant re-balance talks.