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[SUGGESTION] Make instagib/overkill = official

#26
Good observation. Maybe it would indeed make sense to understand and promote "vanilla" as one of the core game modes, on an equal level with overkilk, minsta and defrag? I have nothing against the respective sub-communities, I just like the "vanilla" game mode most.
[Image: 249.png] Latest track on soundcloud: Farewell - to a better Place (piano improvisation)
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<ZeRoQL> i think i got 1 proper quad and that cunt halogen fuck me over with a laser
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#27
Overkill was designed as a separate "mod" to Xonotic, rather than a core mode, the custom models and extra mutators are hints of this.

Quake 1 and Nexuiz are both considered casual to most (Quake being one of the funnest casual FPS games I know and play occasionally), each having as many weapons as Xonotic (and more in the Quake mission packs).
Vanilla was once very popular in Nexuiz, HOCTF being the most active server for a long time.
They are also both predecessors to this game...

If done correctly, vanilla can be casual. We don't need to limit the number of weapons to hitscan only or advertise the secondary mods, making them even more popular and further deterring vanilla players.
One of the core problems with vanilla is that so few are able to even try it due to lack of active servers. Good balance or otherwise, it is hard to find a vanilla match and most write this off as another game fallen to the instagib fanbase.

Those who complain about vanilla being too hard discovered this game in instagib, they are used to the enemy falling in 1 or 2 hits.
That said, it should still be fairly easy to kill people even if you've just picked up the game. I know from experience how enjoyable Nexuiz vanilla was when I started, and how difficult it is to kill someone in Xonotic.

Additionally, as of 0.8, overkill and instagib have their dedicated sections in the server list for those who want them. Trailers and videos may show them off as parts of the game, but we do not need to advertise them further than that now.
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#28
Overkill and Insta+hook indeed deserve more advertising because of their strong player base.

But I also agree with Mario here:

(01-14-2015, 09:29 PM)Mario Wrote: Vanilla was once very popular in Nexuiz, HOCTF being the most active server for a long time.
They are also both predecessors to this game...

If done correctly, vanilla can be casual.

When I first played Xonotic 3 years ago (sigh), DCC public servers were rarely empty and I had a lot of fun in DCC CTF. Some other vanilla servers were active back then (Jupiter Broadcasting server, etc.)
I started as a casual player and didn't have too much trouble with all-weapons and vanilla balance + physics. Actually I kept playing Xonotic because I enjoyed the physics and the fast-paced games, and because these servers were mostly populated by other casual players.
If casual players really dislike all-weapons + 8 armor/health items, why did Nexuiz, Unreal Tournament 99 / 2004 etc were so popular?

However, the skill gap, plus unbalanced teams, can be very frustrating for casual players, that's why they now often join a vanilla server then leave after a minute because they can hardly make a frag against mid or high-skill players.
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#29
It's 2015, not 2003.. it's a new generation of gamers that did not start with quake/ut/rainbow six/descent and other hardcore games. Games nowadays became way easier (beside of some indie titles) and more importantly, there is an endless amount of free-to-play or cheap alternatives. No one is willing to invest their valuable spare time to learn the basics of a shooter when the easy accessible alternative is just a few clicks away.

And about the "people don't play because servers are empty" hypothesis. Remember gronkh.tv testing the game with their followers? Hundreds/thousands of new players within a day, hence crowded servers. Quite a few of them returned in the next couple of days, keeping the servers active. But after 1-2 weeks, they were all gone. Therefore the "people don't play because servers are empty" hypothesis has been falsified long ago, and I don't know why it is being repeated.
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#30
One thing to note is that Xonotic is free of charge, I think people somehow expect free games to be easier and mostly short-term fun. (With some exceptions ofc, like dota and lol)
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#31
If modern players are looking for a quick 5 minute super easy match every once in a while, perhaps we're targeting the wrong crowd.

The whole modern look of the new artwork isn't helping with this (not that we should just drop everything and revert to Nexuiz content, but some organic or at least older looking texture packs may be a good start towards fixing this).
But, rather than just complain about this again, perhaps it is time to start a texture contest of sorts. Will discuss this further in another thread (not even sure the title of this thread matches its posts anymore).



A possible (although evil) source of these textures could be MikeeUSA's Chaos-esque Anthology fork. It has over 20 pk3's packed full of textures, some sets dedicated to specific biomes. All are high enough quality to be included, and all licensed correctly (one of Mikee's things was copyright madness).
[Image: 230.png]
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#32
(01-15-2015, 08:47 AM)Mario Wrote: But, rather than just complain about this again, perhaps it is time to start a texture contest of sorts.
vyes

(01-15-2015, 08:47 AM)Mario Wrote: A possible (although evil) source of these textures could be MikeeUSA's Chaos-esque Anthology fork.
vno
[Image: 249.png] Latest track on soundcloud: Farewell - to a better Place (piano improvisation)
New to Xonotic? Check out my Newbie Corner!
<ZeRoQL> i think i got 1 proper quad and that cunt halogen fuck me over with a laser
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#33
I should also note that he outsources a lot of his material (as do we, for example with the Trak texture set).
We would simply be using his fork to find the sources of the textures, if the idea is voted upon and approved.
[Image: 230.png]
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#34
Also you need to consider why European players out number North American players 20:1.

Sure Overkill is busy but its mostly EU players. Minsta server are busy but again mostly EU players. So it isn't just game mode issues its also a geographical issue and why there's such a discrepancy in the player base for each region. Is it EU players like OSS more, are they more open to different game styles or what?

There has been quite a few new players in Xonotic in the last 4 months. Not sure how many stick around as I haven't played on other server much lately but I do see them on the shot gun server.
[MoFo] Servers - North America - Hosted in Kansas USA - Admin DeadDred [MoFo]
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#35
(01-10-2015, 08:06 AM)asyyy Wrote: Instagib/overkill is what 95% of the people play
Instagib/overkill is what 95% of the people want
Instagib/overkill is the identity of Xonotic to 95% of the people
...
tl;dr why ignore what 95% want to push something that won't work anyway without strong changes that no one dares or is willed to make?
(01-11-2015, 12:37 PM)asyyy Wrote: Devs probably think I am crazy anyway but I suggest advertising Xonotic as follows:
  • Fun, sandbox game based on oldschool arena fps mechanics
  • Create your own server, with a huge selection of mods and customization
  • Casual and competitive instagib with an endless amount of maps
  • Fan of CPM, quakeworld or warsow? Join the Xonotic promode community
  • Like defrag? Try the Xonotic speedrunning servers
  • Free, opensource (GPLv2) and cross-platform (Windows/Linux/Mac)

First idea makes sense for the current situation, but the second idea is likely what would give Xonotic a shot on the long run; promote the diversity (rather than smother / compartmentalize it).

(01-14-2015, 09:29 PM)Mario Wrote: Overkill was designed as a separate "mod" to Xonotic, rather than a core mode, the custom models and extra mutators are hints of this.

I dont know what you are getting at or what you base this off, so ill just go ahead and clarify some of the thoughts that went into the design of Overkill.

The basic ideas and concepts of Overkill is Morphed's brainchild. It originally (i seem to have lost the logs, so correct me if i get parts wrong) went sth like: what if we tried limited weapons with roughly the same potency and get rid of pickups?

The idea evolved to bring together the simplicity of Insta with the diversity of vanilla while staying true to the idea that games should be fun.

And thats about the gist of it; take the good stuff out there, mix in some new and some crazy, have fun with it.

As for what it was designed to be and the reasoning behind that:

It was designed with alternate art to help mitigate problems with core ones and provide a distinct easily recognizable theme for each team. Also, new toys!

It was designed as a mod because thats the sensible way to do things that has major gameplay impact. There was xearo though given to concepts such "separate mod" versus "core mode"; at the time i (naively) thought ppl would be happy rather than pissed at us for developing it (i know that was acid, but we have taken too much fucking flak for this so there).
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#36
"The story of the weapons" by Diomedes

Quote: Once upon a time a game called Nexuiz was released.

Not long after players started to play the game because it was fun. Moving and shooting was great, but the players soon realised that there are too many weapons.

They started to judge the weapons in detail and found out that there are different kinds of weapons:

1. The ones that are fun to use and work well with the game: The Nex. The Rocket Launcher. The Mortar.
2. The ones that work well in certain situations: The Laser. The Electro. The Machine Gun. The Shotgun.
3. The ones that do not seem to fit a certain purpose and are not fun to use either: The Hagar. The Crylink.

The players were not happy about the redundancy of weapons and approached the developers to ask for a change. The developers did not remove or merge any of the weapons though (probably because they were part of the game since the beginning and they did not dare to, but this part is only speculation).

Then, both the developers and the players tacitly agreed to focus on the main weapons (1.) and ocassionally use the supplementary weapons (2.) and ignore the useless weapons (3.).

Some years after Nexuiz' release a game called Xonotic attempted to succeed Nexuiz. The developers of this game intended to make it better than Nexuiz. How did they try to achieve that? By overpowering the weapons listed in 3. and also adding additional weapons (HLAC etc.) for the non-core gameplay).

End of the story.
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#37
HLAC was always a part of Nexuiz, it is part of a mutator in Xonotic, along with a few other non-core weapons. They do not spawn on any maps without the mutator enabled.

Overkill has indeed taken a lot of heat for being so custom and mod-like, yes, but many did appreciate and enjoy it.
The overkill servers were once some of the most active in the game.
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#38
HLAC was not added to Xonotic to help the balance situation, nor was it always a part of Nexuiz.

It begun as a experiment to replace the (back then even more) useless crylink in the early days of Nexuiz. Many ppl on my testserver really enjoyed it and after some serious nagging it got added to the game but as a new gun rather than a replacement. It was one of many, many attempts on my part to fill weapon slot 6 with sth nor useless or op and it didn't work; next! Wink
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#39
Do like Quake Live and add loadouts for non-duel casual modes.

Angel
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#40
How about this (to give newbies the opportunity to learn the game step by step): You spawn with spawn weapons + 2 random weapons. You can pick up a weapon of a killed enemy, which then makes you drop one of the 2 weapons you carry atm. This would make the game accessible to the new generation of players who is used to only 3 weapon binds, and it would still present and appreciate the variety of weapons that Xonotic has to offer. The weapons should be strong enough for newbies to get frags (either increase damage or make movement slower so it is easier to hit the opponents), otherwise they get frustrated and leave (see Ari's post). It could also easily be combined with g_buffs + superweapon pickups + all kind of other fun mods, without making the game too complicated.

Can anyone code that? I would host a server with those settings.
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#41
I' ve been meaning to set up a 3 weapon server for a long time. I have an idea I'll set up today. Three weapons equipped, first one has amo set to infinity and the other two need to have amo picked up. The first on should be close range so as not to give anyone an advantage at distance.


The other option is the NIX mutator where you start with a weapon and then after say 2 min everyone's weapon changes automatically.
[MoFo] Servers - North America - Hosted in Kansas USA - Admin DeadDred [MoFo]
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#42
NIX isn't all that fun IMO. Forcing everyone to use the same single weapon at a time doesn't work so well in my experience.
Loadouts if done right could be fun, I might look into it later.
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#43
(01-17-2015, 04:20 PM)Mario Wrote: NIX isn't all that fun IMO. Forcing everyone to use the same single weapon at a time doesn't work so well in my experience.
Loadouts if done right could be fun, I might look into it later.

It's fun if you set an interval between 1 and 5 seconds!
[Image:http://i.imgur.com/4XODR.png]640K ought to be enough for anybody.
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#44
Loadouts would probably result in most pub players being equipped with sg/mg/nex. Basically vanilla overkill Wink
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#45
Classes/loudouts is way to go imo, it's a familiar concept to new players and will
give them a slightly better chance against more experienced players.

A nice thing could be to combine loudouts with a buff, either that you spawn with the buff and it holds for X seconds or that you have it always. In FFA classes are pretty pointless but in TDM and especially CTF this would be really nice. With informative names it could make a beginner perhaps actually defend and not just run around looking for weapons and/or attack if you get what I mean.

I would still, though, want some if not quite a lot of focus on timing items. This doesn't have to be as big element as now but perhaps have nex, rl and arc being pick up items, having buffs around the maps (unless you spawn with them as I mentioned before ofc) and of course mega health and mega armor.
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#46
(01-18-2015, 06:45 AM)asyyy Wrote: Loadouts would probably result in most pub players being equipped with sg/mg/nex. Basically vanilla overkill Wink

That was my idea all along but need to find a good weapon combo so players don't get ganked left and right by nex snipers. Maybe a short range weapon that shoots faster but less dmg at long range, and two other equipped but need amo pick up or need to be picked up. Random buffs on spawn might work although if you have a dominant player and others as spawning with jump/flight they would be at an disadvantage then.

Is the ARC short range?
[MoFo] Servers - North America - Hosted in Kansas USA - Admin DeadDred [MoFo]
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#47
(01-18-2015, 06:45 AM)asyyy Wrote: Loadouts would probably result in most pub players being equipped with sg/mg/nex. Basically vanilla overkill Wink
Still better than overkill overkill imo Wink

(01-18-2015, 02:23 PM)end user Wrote: Is the ARC short range?
Mid range.
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#48
(01-16-2015, 02:59 PM)Diomedes Wrote: 3. The ones that do not seem to fit a certain purpose and are not fun to use either: The Hagar. The Crylink.

Don't hate me, but


I actually really like the Crylink

The biggest reason I play InstaGib more than I play vanilla is because the servers that are both low ping and populated for me are InstaGib. Then again, I suck at both but I still find them fun; I'm probably not representative of the overall player base.
I am Xonotic, and so can you!
Pwnage, a close relative of sausage.
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#49
Sorry if i sound harsh but i just played some xonotic weapons games on smb au public a server with 250 ping for me with temporal nexuiz weapons instead of xonotic regulars and i had much more fun than with usual weapons, as expected i got really really owned as you can see here http://stats.xonotic.org/game/404981?show_elo=1 and i'm not saying this because of nexuiz nostalgia, i hardly played weapons on nexuiz, at most 50 matches.

But damn, for example the electro and the crylink were fun to shot, i can't say that the xonotic version are bad, and i totally understand why a noob shooting randomly the electro without really aiming or having much idea can be really annoying if he does kill you. On the other side, it was satisfying to shot randomly pellets of light with the electro until i'm out of ammo and seeing players getting killed at least some times. The same goes for the crylink.

The graphics of xonotic really beat nexuiz in all aspects, also the effects are much more better on xon, but damn i have not had so much fun playing weapons in a lot time.

I'm not trying to start a flamewar or anything, but now i think that i understand why so many players didn't switched from nexuiz to xonotic. If i had much more fun on a server with 250 ping with nexuiz settings and still got some kills, i still ended on last place but it was really FUN! on the other side, when i play on some servers with 75 ping there i can have much better response time but even when i win(that doesn't happen that often) it isn't as fun. Maybe is some of the chaotic nature of nexuiz that makes it that good(like having a lot of lighting pellets on ground) or that the shooting times are a lot shorter(i really hate nex new cooldown, but whatever that isn't the point after all the nex is the only weapon i really know how to use) shooting pellets without much of a cool-down is great(especially when playing against more skilled players). My point is that you are basically random shooting and with shorter times of re fire you have a better chance to hit anything at all. You are still going to be obliterated most of the times by the skilled player, but you will get some hits, i can't say the same on Xonotic.

All i saying is that it might be a good idea to have a weapon config who is noob friendly like nexuiz without weapon shot cooldown or something like that.
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#50
Perhaps we should in some way codify these different styles, and when somebody runs Xon for the first time, they get a menu that says something like "Welcome to Xonotic 0.8! Please choose your preferred style of play" and then under it a set of big, aesthetic panels (like the campaign mission panels) with the names and descriptions of the various playstyles. This would also help players to understand the jargon faster. These would each have their own tutorial/campaign/whatever.
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