Spawn system

New thread origined from this one.

A new system would be nice though, perhaps that can be discussed further in another thread?

/discuss

Personally I think that any g_spawn_furthest value will never be perfect.
The option to delay your spawn will change things in the upcoming future for sure.

Something like prevent to spawn at the same spawn again would be a good step, but probably it should kick in after at least 2 spawns at same spot. If it would be active after just one spawn it will make it easy to predict.

Also if a spawn system could take warpzones (and teleporters) into account would be obviously better, but I am not sure if that is possible at all.

Stuff like spawn shields are bad, as they give an advantage to one player for a new seconds.
Example: What if the player that surived is very low on health and can't even defend himself, because of a spawn shield.
It might even be exploited that far, that you just suicide to finally take down the other player and take control.
Only way I could see it working would be if both players are protected for a few seconds, but that'd be "meh".

Additionally spawn points in the popular maps (especially official ones) could be reworked and discussed. To change these is not really a big effort.

In that thread I proposed an idea:

I'm in favor of a mechanism that makes the spawn frag counterproductive, there's already the spawnshield, which shields you from any damage within a few seconds after respawning... is it used in duels?
But I think we could do even more in addition to the spawn shield: any damage dealt on a freshly respawned player gets inflicted to the spawn killer instead. Alternatively the damage can be turned into health given to the respawned player.

Stuff like spawn shields are bad, as they give an advantage to one player for a new seconds.
Example: What if the player that surived is very low on health and can't even defend himself, because of a spawn shield.
It might even be exploited that far, that you just suicide to finally take down the other player and take control.
Only way I could see it working would be if both players are protected for a few seconds, but that'd be "meh".

It's not "meh" if it helps to get rid of this unfair habit of spawnkilling. Almost anything is better than spawnkilling.

Enhancing my idea I would add this rule: freshly respawned player can't receive any damage for up to X seconds unless he hurts the opponent. If he does so, then he can instantly receive damage again (no more spawn shield). While you have the spawn shield you can e.g. take a decent weapon and have more chances to fight against a full stacked opponent, who need to be more careful before attacking.

Enhancing my idea I would add this rule: freshly respawned player can't receive any damage for up to X seconds unless he hurts the opponent. If he does so, then he can instantly receive damage again (no more spawn shield). While you have the spawn shield you can e.g. take a decent weapon and have more chances to fight against a full stacked opponent, who need to be more careful before attacking.

This would most likely be counter-productive. Duels in xon are really fast, and maps are relatively small. Even if spawns are changed to prevent spawnkills better, being in view of an opponent 0.5-1 second after the spawn can't be completely ruled out. One part of duels (and tdm to a certain extent) is the momentum you get by killing the opponent, and how you can control the map after he spawns with nothing, preventing him easy access to certain weapons, big items. With a spawn shield he has that immunity to get a bit of those for free without any risk.
Plus, imagine in tdm, you shoot a rocket that misses, which ends its course on the opposite of the room, except a freshly spawned opponent happens to come here at this point, and you take damage for it... does that seem fair and logical?



One point which i don't think i have seen, and may be not too difficult to implement: a map like hub has.. i don't remember, but 6 or 7 spawns? What if you doubled the amount of possible spawns, having the new ones somewhat spaced off if possible, be sure there's no super bad ones, and have the possibility to spawn only at one of the furthest one (3 or 4 furthest i guess). Has that already been considered?

Also wanted to add, duels are probably the main reason for those questions being raised in the first place, but remember that there are indeed other modes than duel that people enjoy and play =)

Smilecythes suggestion was the best and makes perfect sense, I don't see why that wouldn't be implemented.

Could you put Smilecythe's text into this thread, or link it? I remember reading his suggestions and liking them at one point, but I'd have a hard time finding it now.

With a spawn shield he has that immunity to get a bit of those for free without any risk.

My main goal is to prevent mostly insta spawnkills: spawn shield would last only a few seconds (maybe 2 - 3 seconds) so it can't be abused too much by the respawning player.

Plus, imagine in tdm, you shoot a rocket that misses, which ends its course on the opposite of the room, except a freshly spawned opponent happens to come here at this point, and you take damage for it... does that seem fair and logical?

On the other hand, in this case the respawning player would receive an unfair damage without spawn shield (if he didn't have the chance to avoid the rocket). I don't claim my idea is the perfect solution, it's OK if it works in most cases. Eventually in tdm it can be adapted by reducing/removing self-damage, spawn shield time can be lowered too.

Anyway we would need a system that works on any map (most maps) without relying on the mapper being a great dueler that puts spawnpoints in the good places.

My main goal is to prevent mostly insta spawnkills: spawn shield would last only a few seconds (maybe 2 - 3 seconds) so it can't be abused too much by the respawning player.

In just about any arenaFPS game spawn killing is a thing. The game is too fast paced and it is very easy to be killed. That is just the nature of the beast. Instead of trying to punish people who actually have taken the time to get good at such aspects we need to come from a different approach. I agree the spawn system needs work, but spawnshields is a terrible idea which will only frustrate players who understand the game well enough to do it.

Why should a superior player be punished? If I see you am I not supposed to shoot you? Its a deathmatch. I've memorized the spawns for a lot of maps by now. This knowledge comes with the ability to possibly get a quick frag off the spawn. Sometimes there is some luck involved depending on the server settings. There are very few maps and even less players that actually can do instant spawn kills. If you are capable of doing such then you deserve the frag. Its not like brand new players off the street are spawn fragging left and right. Then you might have a point.

If you find yourself continually getting spawn killed then there are 2 very apparent options: 1) The person you're playing is way better than you and you should find an opponent who matches your skill level better 2) You're playing downer, stormkeep, or hub (again) and 'wow i got spawned killed'. No shit. Those maps are a spawn kill fests (it goes both ways remember). These 3 maps are the main culprits.

Talk of shields and this imaginary "take damage if you hit a fresh spawned opponent" is straight blasphemy. I understand you're just trying to help but such ideas only hurt people like me who've invested time in a game and learned the little nuances that make me successful. Such things dissuade other players from focusing on certain elements of the game because you want to punish them for it.

My opinion in a nutshell:

1.0 sucks for small maps.
1.0 is unnecessary for big maps.
0.5 is win.
100% random, but not twice in same spawn would be more win.

For those who were wondering what Smile said. I am not opposed to this idea.

I would oppose spawn shields as well. It is really frustrating if you hit someone with full nex load and he's immune, and goes at you with shotgun immediately while you wait for the delayed weapon switch time to pass. Imho there is no room for a spawn kill at least in competitive matches.

I like the approach that you can delay your respawn for a bit, but after all if we go for 100% random but not twice in a row at same spot, then that would make it a fair distribution of risk and chance. Maybe make it only so you can't spawn twice within a given timeframe so you can actually spawn twice at the same spot if there has enough time passed since your last respawn.

Why should a superior player be punished? If I see you am I not supposed to shoot you? Its a deathmatch. I've memorized the spawns for a lot of maps by now. This knowledge comes with the ability to possibly get a quick frag off the spawn. Sometimes there is some luck involved depending on the server settings. There are very few maps and even less players that actually can do instant spawn kills. If you are capable of doing such then you deserve the frag. Its not like brand new players off the street are spawn fragging left and right. Then you might have a point.

You know, that is a point i never fully understood on Arena-FPS where those spawnkills happen. Now i'm definitely not in favor of spawn-shields in this game, and i've explained my reasons in my post on this thread. But why should the ability to instant spawn kill be rewarded?

My understanding was that, getting the frag gave you the advantage of having 2 seconds to freely move in the map/get an item, then be in a position where you can profit of the fact your opponent just respawned, only has 100 hp, no weapons etc...
Therefore having the ability to make use of that advantage, with superior positioning, the ability to deny your opponent weapons/armors etc..., or the ability to quickly identify where the opponent spawned to kill him before he can build up weapons/stack again.
But instant spawnfrags are another different beast i think. Of course they also require a lot of skill and knowledge if you want to pull them off successfully. But they, unlike previous examples, offer absolutely no sort of counter-play by the opponent to lessen the impact of it, if the player executing them does that rather perfectly.

All i mean is... am i missing something about why instant spawnkills are good for the game and/or should stay there? Or are they just a bad unintended side-effect that people are fine learning to abuse, because, well it is possible so why not?

What i said might be a bit off topic, but i'd argue that if we are to change the spawn system successfully, we have to know how the game is intended to be played and its mechanics, so that the implemented spawn system accomplishes the intended features the best.

You know, that is a point i never fully understood on Arena-FPS where those spawnkills happen. Now i'm definitely not in favor of spawn-shields in this game, and i've explained my reasons in my post on this thread. But why should the ability to instant spawn kill be rewarded?

It's not an easily attainable skill. If every Joe Schmo Xonotic player could spawn frag people with ease then your point is valid. There would be no point in rewarding a player who doesn't have the experience and know-how with a free frag and even more control of the map. In this case, if this is happening to you, you're just getting out-played and need to move on from there and wonder how you can do better in such situations. Instead, people look to point fingers how the game is broken (the system is not perfect and needs change as I mentioned previously) and how certain things aren't fair. It certainly can seem like something must be wrong.

But instant spawnfrags are another different beast i think. Of course they also require a lot of skill and knowledge if you want to pull them off successfully. But they, unlike previous examples, offer absolutely no sort of counter-play by the opponent to lessen the impact of it, if the player executing them does that rather perfectly.

Exactly. The timing and execution needs to be spot on to preform such actions. You almost never see it in other maps not named hub. Which brings me back to my previous point, its more of a map issue (certain maps are played to death while others are just super easy to convert on ie. warpzones, hub etc) If you were able to do on on other maps I'd be seriously impressed. Its quite difficult to do. No matter how you try and change how spawning works in this game you will continue to see them. The game is far too fast and its far too easy to die.

There are many good reasons why this genre has a very low population. The skill cap is insanely high, there is a lot of underlying information that isn't readily apparent and most players get destroyed right off the bat against even mid-skill players. The amount of time require to be a 'good' player and the amount of skill tiers seems almost unending. Just when you think you're hot shit there is always some guy out there who wipes the floor with you.

Xonotic is interesting in the fact that your health regenerates and you start with very useful weapons off the bat. No other arenafps game starts with such an array of weapons. A good shotgun blast and a slap? Thats like 130 damage right there. Blaster can give you a quick speed boost and throw your enemy in the air. A fresh spawn is not as helpless as people like to believe.

All i mean is... am i missing something about why instant spawnkills are good for the game and/or should stay there? Or are they just a bad unintended side-effect that people are fine learning to abuse, because, well it is possible so why not?

Of course they should stay. They are a rarity and people who can actually pull them off deserve such.

What i said might be a bit off topic, but i'd argue that if we are to change the spawn system successfully, we have to know how the game is intended to be played and its mechanics, so that the implemented spawn system accomplishes the intended features the best.

I think you're over complicating the issue here. The goal in this game is quite simple: run, shoot, kill. Yeah you collect some items and there are some other advanced tactics but thats not the point. The meta of the game isn't some mystery puzzle we've been trying solve over the decades of fast paced shooters. If you've followed any scene, there are people that make seemingly good players look like regular pubs. The arenafps genre hasn't changed in the past 20 years. So don't ask how we can drastically change the game to suit you, ask how you can change to suit the game.

I agree with PloPlo's reasoning. In Xonotic you can deal a lot of damage in no time if you are skilled enough, you can kill a respawning player without letting him the time to react. It is unfair.

SPLAT: would it be an acceptable compromise for you to lower the damage dealt to a respawning player? This way chances he can try to react are higher but the attacker is still rewarded by his "skilled" attack, and game's flow isn't broken.

Spawn shields aren't a great solution. If you're going to have a spawn shield, then it needs to instantly deactivate if you fire/shoot any weapon (including laser, don't want to get pushed off a platform, etc), in addition to a timeout. Not sure how you'd handle grapple/hook, as you'd be able to use it to get away, but you could also hook the other player (which if they have minimal HP, could kill).

Due to the small amount of travel time, you could get the following situation:
Player 1 kills Player 2. Player 1 has low health but has a weapon with high damage (eg: vaporizer).
Player 2 spawns.
Player 1 and Player 2 shoot each other at pretty much the same time. Both die. Both now respawn.

This gives both players some sort of chance, much better than a default 2 second spawn shield. Yes that window is small, but at the moment if player who gets the first kill is at low HP, the killed player gets the advantage till the spawn shield wears off. This may only be a second, but that can be all that you need.

Note: I don't really like spawn shields, but if you're going to have them, at least make them much fairer.

Yes any g_spawnfurthest value is not a great system, that is true, i'd still automatically pick 0.5 (as its less predictable) for now as a TEMPORARY system. But it ofcourse can / should be enhanced from that. Spawnfurthest1.0 setting unfortunately causes "blame maps" bullshit. Spawnsystem should cater to all maps, not like "maps should be created this spawnsystem in mind".

Smilecythes suggestion is exactly what i've been saying as a better system, 100% random, but no 2x spawns to one spot, can ofc be still enhanced. On UT, maps are divided as named areas. (Like, 100a, Cellar, Shieldbelt, Corridor, Rocketlauncherroom, etc etc) Opponent players can never spawn in the same room you are in, no 2x on same spot and otherwise it is full randomized. Has worked really well, no complaints really.

About spawn shields, i wont take any part of that convo, because thats completely bullshit. Obviously will not happen. You will be spawnraped if you play vs highskilled players, as its a part of duel skill to prevent your opponent from advancing anywhere, to go for spawns, listen to spawns, know the spots! Also doing a complete maplock is considered duel skill, which pretty much makes your everyday player being the one losing 55-0 vs _top_ dueller. Why should it be spawnshielded away? If you play vs ANY lower skill than absolute top, i GUARANTEE you, there will not be a spawnraping "problem". (I'am talking about normalweapons, not instagib also)

I'am glad the spawnsystem is being discussed! Its about time

I've always disliked the idea of random spawns. It is the worst thing if a player just spawns behind you - cause random Xonotic god decided so - and just kills you (if you are low). This happend so much back then and of course even more in modes with more players involved like TDM.
I don't get what is the good thing about that, since there is obviously no fair share of 'free frags'.

Duel example:
Player A controls, makes 10 kills.
Player B finally takes him down but is left with low HP.
Player A spawns behind him, boom Shotgun, Player B dead. Frustration level Player B: Over 9000.
Player A picks all items and it starts all over again

Can someone explain what is great about such scenarios?

(Yes, Player A could always try to rush him down, but Player B has still the opportunity to pick up some item if Player A spawns in a different room)

Obviously if could happen that Player A who is in control is on low HP and Player B suddenly spanws behind him. But it there are valid reason based on some skill why it should happen, other then for the sake of adding randomness/luck that could benifit *anyone*?

Spawnsystem should cater to all maps, not like "maps should be created this spawnsystem in mind".

No, no, no. A mapper has to create his map based on the game. If I'd would make a box with 1 spawn then I can't play the other mechanics of the game if my map sucks.

Maps coming from other games should be fixed rather and I would like to talke more about this.

For Aerowalk, I created such a version but apparantly people were not happy in this case, because it is more difficult to spawnkill respectively don't like the tiny armor changes (that help the downside player as well).
But r5 has two additional spawn points and the Mortar spawn is moved behind the pillar. I could even restore the armors.

For example the bloodrun_a2 was utter shit in terms of spawning, a3 received a lot of versitile spawn points and improved everything. It's not even that hard to do, just needs some dicussion.

Also the notorious Stormkeep kill-me-10-times-warpzone has been improved by just moving the spawn point.

You can stop random spawns behind you, if you move back on the spawn spot, I used to do this with the old system.

I'm aware it's not always possible, I only did it when I was low on health, forces the player to spawn somewhere else

Please no respawn shield, it's been done before and just loads of complaints, it's also just really frustrating, worse then 'random spawn behind and drag you' scenario.

Actually I agree to some extent with Mirio (and others who have made that point before) that we should fix the maps where the current spawn system is a problem (especially hub and stormkeep). I don't much mind a little randomness, but I can understand that more proficient players seek to maximize their control over the game and there every randomness weakens their (earned and deserved) grip on controlling the game. When I think of it, there are only a couple of maps where I have experienced spawnkilling as a problem.

For the avoidance of doubts, I don't like spawnkilling at all and all this talk about it being such a superior skill of pro players is just nonsense to me. After all, we should focus on what makes this game enjoyable and a quality gaming experience, and I think for the majority of players this does not contain the possibility to rape another player 10 times in a row with minimal effort and without the chance of the raped player to do anything against it. However, we should also acknowledge that the ability to control a game by means of prediction is an important aspect for competitive gameplay.

Therefore I think we should really fix the maps that allow for spawnkill rapes instead of introducing randomness. If some maps happen to not work with Xonotic's spawn system, we should rather fix them instead of Xonotic.

Good work on convincing me there, Mirio.

It's not an easily attainable skill.

As i said before, i do acknowledge that. And indeed it's rare enough to find someone able to do that (well not so much, but that's cause of low playerbase with lots of strong players)

In this case, if this is happening to you, you're just getting out-played and need to move on from there and wonder how you can do better in such situations.

However, i was specifically talking of situations where there is absolutely no counter-play possible. (like hub across the map against perfect timing)
Situations where you're pretty certain to die cause you're rushed, but have the ability to slightly adapt your play to delay your death/do more damage to opponent etc... are fine.

You almost never see it in other maps not named hub. Which brings me back to my previous point, its more of a map issue

I agree. I have pretty much no problem with spawns on most maps.

There are many good reasons why this genre has a very low population.

The arenafps genre hasn't changed in the past 20 years.

Well, i guess that's one obvious one at least! ^^
Not that it's inherently bad that arenafps stayed pretty much the same, but that has its disadvantages.

So don't ask how we can drastically change the game to suit you, ask how you can change to suit the game.

I'm not really asking about drastically changing the game. I'm just trying to understand how it works etc...
And it takes time to adjust to all those little things.

Smilecythes suggestion is exactly what i've been saying as a better system, 100% random, but no 2x spawns to one spot, can ofc be still enhanced.

While i can see the interests of such a system in general, wouldn't it still allow instant spawnkills? Though at a less frequent rate of course. But then it'd have even more of an impact when it does happen, because the other player can't "rely" on it to get free frags too.

A spawn shield that only reduces damage received (let's say 50%), gets removed as soon as you shoot (hit?) the opponent and lasts only a few seconds (even 1 second) seems a good compromise to me. It would work independently from the spawnpoint selection method, which can't never be good for any map.

Anyway hub can be fixed, but there always will be maps that need fixing, in the mean time we all play them the way they are.

I've always disliked the idea of random spawns. It is the worst thing if a player just spawns behind you - cause random Xonotic god decided so - and just kills you (if you are low). This happend so much back then and of course even more in modes with more players involved like TDM.
I don't get what is the good thing about that, since there is obviously no fair share of 'free frags'.

Duel example:
Player A controls, makes 10 kills.
Player B finally takes him down but is left with low HP.
Player A spawns behind him, boom Shotgun, Player B dead. Frustration level Player B: Over 9000.
Player A picks all items and it starts all over again

Can someone explain what is great about such scenarios?

What's great is that it adds variation to scenarios themselves. If someone spawns behind you and kills you then that's your fault for not taking that chance into account, there's more scenarios that can simply happen and the game requires you to take more precautions against reverse spawnkills as well as item snatch spawns. When you're attempting to spawnkill, you usually take positions in places where you got good angles to shoot at entry/exit points of various spawns. Why can't you simultaneously prevent having angles to spawns that at your current location would give your opponent the advantage? It's not that hard if you're used to it. Reversion cup was full of surprises and improvisation, unlike the current repetitive model with predictable spawns.

Since when was the last time you saw someone spawn near the boxes (center) in Fuse? Seems like it never happens anymore, if I didn't know any better i'd say the spawn point has been edited out. Imo after a while it gets boring to spawn to the opposite end of the map. Random ftw.

A spawn shield that only reduces damage received (let's say 50%), gets removed as soon as you shoot (hit?) the opponent and lasts only a few seconds (even 1 second) seems a good compromise to me. It would work independently from the spawnpoint selection method, which can't never be good for any map.

With all due respect stfu about the spawnshields already. Nobody will ever use that in competitive games and spawnshields do in fact already exist in some pub/casual servers.

spawnshields do in fact already exist in some pub/casual servers.

The spawnshield shield I saw in other servers shields you from ANY damage. With the spawnshield I proposed it would still make sense to shoot at the respawning player, it would only be less effective, to compensate his initial weakness.

With the spawnshield I proposed it would still make sense to shoot at the respawning player, it would only be less effective, to compensate his initial weakness.

Being weak doesn't need compensation, it's up to you to not die in the first place. The game at it's core encourages you to do your best to stay alive, the emphasis on survival skills is what gives this game balance between raw skill and decision making. If you're trimming away the importance of staying alive, then you're just making this game be more about rushing, shooting and accuracy. That's unacceptable, we already have instagib and overkill for that.

If I'm not making any sense, then I'll just stick to "It's a very bad idea". What you're proposing will never be accepted by the competitive community and it'll make pubs comfortable only for new players who in particular dislike the thought of getting spawn killed, who have no idea why they're being spawn killed or who think that it's okay for them to rush straight at the fight with spawn weapons. If you dislike Xonotic because you get spawn killed a lot, then this might simply not be your kind of game. What you're proposing is not a compromise, it's a suggestion to bend your butt over to a minority who A. are new and probably quit the game within the next week anyway B. have outlandish gameplay values and want the game to be turned into something they're used to.

The question is what we want to achieve here. I believe that the problem we want to get rid of is not that you are vulnerable upon spawn so you might get killed right off your spawn by someone that happens to be near or that shoots at a spawnpoint in case someone might spawn there by chance. Personally I don't really mind if in a deathmatch I spawn some place where someone else happens to be and I get taken down immediately due to lower health/weapon arsenal.

What most people complain about when they complain about spawnkills are those cycles of spawning and instant deaths that experienced players manage to pull off just by positioning themselves in a certain way and thereby triggering a certain spawnpoint that they shoot at. I believe these controllable spawnkill traps are what generate a lot of frustration, so we should focus on a way to get rid of them. Since this seems to exclusively be a problem in a couple of maps, we should tend to those maps rather than the underlying game mechanic. The whole problem is most probably highly overrated only because it happens to be a trivial exploit in two of the by far most played duel maps (hub and stormkeep). We should provide new revisions of those maps that fix this issue. If those fixed map versions are available and people still play the old versions, then those people can be considered to be willingly accepting the spawnrape mechanism.

If you dislike Xonotic because you get spawn killed a lot, then this might simply not be your kind of game. What you're proposing is not a compromise, it's a suggestion to bend your butt over to a minority who A. are new and probably quit the game within the next week anyway B. have outlandish gameplay values and want the game to be turned into something they're used to.

This. And also any other quake like game for that matter. Reflex, CPMA, Quake 1, 2, 3 etc.

This is commonplace and has been a core part of gameplay since the beginning. Changing now is stupid as the problem lies in an imbalance in TWO maps and player skill level. If you're facing someone who is a much higher skill level what do you expect? Why are we placing the blame on players doing what they are supposed to do? This so called 'spawn killing dilemma' is completely fabricated by people who don't even duel! Stop acting like we need to shelter players and hold their hand throughout the game. If you find yourself dying too much find someone your own skill level. If for some reason this is still not acceptable to you, go play a different game that can cater to your unrealistic demands.

I would like to encourage people to name other maps where spawn killing is known to be an issue. Maybe it's not just an isolated issue of hub and stormkeep?

Also, what other problems are perceived with the current spawn system (apart from not getting to spawn in center area of fuse)?

What I'm proposing seems to me a very small change if compared to actively punishing the spawnkiller, SmileCythe and SPLAT are acting like it would change the game entirely... maybe I'm missing something.