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[SUGGESTION] Making Vanilla more enjoyable for Newbies

#26
(09-26-2017, 12:56 PM)Antibody Wrote: I can look into showing the frag matrix in stats.


Since you are more apt to respond on the forums than IRC. I'll ask again,
For players who have quit the game (inactive for x months), what is their win:loss ratio?
For players who currently play the game (last played the game x days ago), what is their win:loss ratio?
For the same conditions above, what is their k:d?
i.e is the low player population of long term or short term, or both, retention issues?

Aggregating above information, what is the hypothetical minimum win:loss ratio that keeps players engaged with the game? What about k;d, same conditions applied.


(09-25-2017, 04:17 PM)martin-t Wrote: I wish xonstats showed the kill matrix because my guess is that winners in DM get most of their kills from newbies and avoid each other. There's no point in fighting strong players, you're just wasting time when you can be spawnkilling slow noobs.
I also have an issue with FFA/Deathmatch being the "default" mode because it's a poor mode to get started on (reasons stated before). Not only is it the default mode, it also is the menu vote bound to the 1 key on votable servers (I put TDM as the first vote option and it becomes a little more popular).

While I don't have the stats to back up the assertions (and I've tried downloading a db snapshot of XonStats).
Assume that Xonotic has a low playing population because new players are losing too often to remain engaged e.g behavioral psychology pins 1:3 as the minimum win:loss rate for the worst player to remain playing the game as opposed to quitting.

    - FFA/Deathmatch is x number of players with only 1 winner, the rest, x-1  being losers.

Mathematically, the mode generates more losers per match than it would team-based modes e.g CTF or Team Deathmatch. Because the frags have to come from somewhere, there's going to be a similar situation where one or few players have a k:d above 1, and the rest beneath.

However, the playing community culture that Xonotic faces is that teams have to be balanced otherwise people play free-for-all. So the team mode has to be popular enough (instagib or vehicles) to have enough players on both teams where a slightly larger team doesn't make too big a difference, or it needs bots to fill in.

However the bots are dumb and more likely a liability because the settings in bots.txt makes them dumb (and barely anyone bothers with it) and a large portion of Xonotic's content is borrowed from custom maps from Quake mapping community so the bots aren't even waypointed.
Xonotic exists for a long time and low player count is the proof that nobody wants to play Xonotic since it is a bad game by default.
- Lyberta, 2017
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#27
I was using my "xonotic" subdomain to host a server for an event. I've reverted it back to what it was before (plain HTTP server). This snapshot link should do the trick.
asyyy^ | are you releated to chuck norris?
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#28
Yeah, default should be TDM or even CTF with a few bots per team. That's how it is in Red Eclipse and it helps a lot.

The shotgun charge can now be fixed with random start weapons.
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#29
(09-26-2017, 08:23 PM)Lyberta Wrote: Yeah, default should be TDM or even CTF with a few bots per team. That's how it is in Red Eclipse and it helps a lot.

The shotgun charge can now be fixed with random start weapons.

You're missing the point for the mention of "shotgun charging". They shouldn't be charging off spawn to begin with; however they do so because:
  • It's a viable tactic in crowded FFA (e.g 5+ players in map designed for Duel or 2v2) sessions where there aren't enough pick ups for players and there's a good chance a nearby player is low enough to get finished off by a shotgun
  • It's a viable tactic in Overkill because the shotgun's damage in that mod is 170'ish at close range.
  • It's a viable tactic in modern shooters because it is conventionally the gun that deals a lot of damage.
The shotgun is just an exceptionally poor choice.
Random start weapons adds unfairness and can give a poor impression of the game.
Xonotic exists for a long time and low player count is the proof that nobody wants to play Xonotic since it is a bad game by default.
- Lyberta, 2017
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#30
(09-26-2017, 08:57 PM)Antares* Wrote: Random start weapons adds unfairness and can give a poor impression of the game.

Random start weapons make the game easier and give more chances to score frags.
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#31
(09-27-2017, 04:55 AM)Lyberta Wrote:
(09-26-2017, 08:57 PM)Antares* Wrote: Random start weapons adds unfairness and can give a poor impression of the game.

Random start weapons make the game easier and give more chances to score frags.

You shouldn't compromise fairness for ease.
Xonotic exists for a long time and low player count is the proof that nobody wants to play Xonotic since it is a bad game by default.
- Lyberta, 2017
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#32
I'm a bit unclear as to what DM being the "default" actually means. Are we talking about what UI items are actually highlighted when someone goes to the "create" tab, the order of the items in the gametype voting screens, or something else entirely? If we can be more specific about what we think needs changing I'd be happy to create an issue on Gitlab for it or put it to a team vote.
asyyy^ | are you releated to chuck norris?
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#33
Could I remind everyone that this thread is NOT about changing any defaults in the game and especially not about forcing anything like a handicap onto skilled players but rather about the idea that we could develop a sort of FFA playing etiquette for skilled players by (officially) encouraging the use of handicap in FFA games on a strictly volountary basis? This includes actually promoting the use of handicap by skilled players (as quite some people were asking me "what do you mean, handicap, what does it do") and reducing the bar to actually use it by making elo consider the handicap or at least disregard scores. I'm not against forcing dynamic handicap on dedicated newbie servers but would strongly object to it for normal ffa servers (and of course it wouldn't make any sense whatsoever for pickup servers).
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#34
(09-27-2017, 08:28 AM)Halogene Wrote: Could I remind everyone ....

Sorry about that, maybe we should detach this discussion to another thread? OTOH, I am happy to inform you that I've seen a lot of people using handicap on public servers so I guess this thread fulfilled its purpose Tongue

Antares, yes, it's a viable tactic, but only to a certain extent (you likely won't end up last but definitely not first). More importantly it dumbs the game down. There's no point in using skillful movement to survive if you're content with just a couple frags. Or when you get hurt and are low on health it's often easier to just die and start with 100h again. Maybe it's what people want, I noticed small maps are popular on WTWRP deathmatch even with a lot of people. I am probably the minority but DM gets boring really fast, compared to CTF it's like half the things i like about xon (outmaneuvering the enemy using the resources at hand) are missing. DM doesn't provide much room for improvement except learn to find the weak and pick on them till you hit 30 kills.

Antibody, it's the most common mode in campaign (a valid excuse would be that CTF with bots is excruciatingly dull), it's at the top of mode selection in Create dialog and the gametype cvar is set to dm so when you start a server you get DM by default. At least having the mode voting screen enabled by default would be nice so you can start with a few people with DM and switch to TDM or even CTF when you get a decent number of players on the server.

I was told on IRC that TDM is even more unforgiving to newbies then DM but i don't remember the exact reasons (except dying gives enemy a point), so maybe they weren't too convincing Wink
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<packer> when i see martin-t's name my blood pressure increases

<[BOT]Hоtdоg> anyone here lives near martin?
<[BOT]Hоtdоg> will pay monies for shooting him
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#35
(09-27-2017, 09:40 AM)martin-t Wrote: I was told on IRC that TDM is even more unforgiving to newbies then DM but i don't remember the exact reasons (except dying gives enemy a point), so maybe they weren't too convincing Wink
There's the exact same kind of dynamic for games like DOTA, where dying makes your enemies stronger (gives gold and experience points). Which is probably more brutal to underdogs / new players, but at the time it doesn't affect the game's popularity (this is before being picked up by a big name like Valve and having random loot boxes, etc). It might not matter too much ultimately as long as some players get some wins in.

(09-27-2017, 07:53 AM)Antibody Wrote: I'm a bit unclear as to what DM being the "default" actually means. Are we talking about what UI items are actually highlighted when someone goes to the "create" tab, the order of the items in the gametype voting screens, or something else entirely? If we can be more specific about what we think needs changing I'd be happy to create an issue on Gitlab for it or put it to a team vote.

I put default in quotes, loosely I meant it being THE mode. I might be more minded toward server.cfg, where there are a lot of basic Xonotic servers with no special configuration e.g default hostname Xonotic 0.8.2 Server or <name> Xonotic 0.8.2 Server that only have DM and standard maps. A lot of new players who want the base playing experience or don't understand the categories or brief description of features in the hostname tend to pick those servers. However currently the trend seems to be Create Menu / LAN games hence the number of players technically higher than before

190 players and 376 games (160 ctf; 104 dm; 57 duel; 26 cts; 19 tdm; 10 other) in the past 24 hours.
24 Jul 2016 06:29:33 UTC
https://archive.fo/qzlgX

233 players and 412 games (146 dm; 136 ctf; 100 duel; 17 cts; 10 tdm; 3 other) in the past 24 hours.
10 Oct 2016 10:12:11 UTC
https://archive.fo/p7T3G

322 players and 405 games (201 dm; 152 ctf; 15 cts; 13 tdm; 13 duel; 11 other) in the past 24 hours.
30 Jun 2017 08:11:45 UTC
https://archive.fo/RbnTO

340 players and 552 games (321 dm; 123 ctf; 27 duel; 27 tdm; 23 ft; 31 other) in the past 24 hours.
27 Sep 2017 11:43:56 UTC
https://archive.fo/6sh4y

despite everyone being uppity about new players / player population lately.

I am not sure how to make this post relevant to voluntary handicapping. But I'll stop here.
Xonotic exists for a long time and low player count is the proof that nobody wants to play Xonotic since it is a bad game by default.
- Lyberta, 2017
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#36
(09-27-2017, 05:29 PM)Antares* Wrote: I am not sure how to make this post relevant to voluntary handicapping. But I'll stop here.

Since this thread appears to be exclusively about handicap etiquette, requesting a thread title that isn't vanilla player bait.

For those looking to improve over time, there isn't really a time that self-handicapping won't untrain some of the feel and habits that you develop when playing a game with consistent mechanics.  Of course, active training is most useful but many of us rarely or never do this.  The best method of making any mode more enjoyable is to bring more players of similar skill together to play matches.

There seemed to be a lot of excitement for a newbie night taking place on a /v/ east coast server but the admin had bandwidth issues.  The /v/ pacific server has had some success with this but a lot of the players who come in are European or east coast ping whiners.  If any east coast or European server admins can find gaming or FOSS forums that don't mind event advertisement, this could be a good way to bring in new players.  In my relatively limited experience with Xonotic, I've seen active approaches like this, tournament hosting, and ladders work much better than fire-and-forget server hosting.
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#37
(09-04-2017, 03:15 AM)For everyone that didn\t know, you can set your handicap (it's a client side setting) by issuing Wrote:
Code:
cl_handicap <value>
in console, whereas the <value> defines the factor by which damage you receive gets multiplied and damage you deal gets reduced. I use values between 1.3 and 2. As it is a client side setting, you'll need to report it to the server after setting it by doing
Code:
sendcvar cl_handicap <value>
OFC i didn't know, and how should if i don't know where to find it (or care to look for).
I would gladly use handicap if it was a slider in the options menu instead of typing a command.
Quake 3 has a handicap option in the menu and i used it when i played my inferior colleagues back in the day.
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#38
(11-17-2017, 02:10 PM)Pendulla Wrote: OFC i didn't know, and how should if i don't know where to find it (or care to look for).
I would gladly use handicap if it was a slider in the options menu instead of typing a command.
Quake 3 has a handicap option in the menu and i used it when i played my inferior colleagues back in the day.

I definitely like the idea of putting the handicap in the menus somewhere as a slider.

Might also be worth putting it on the F5 join popup screen (or an option to put it there, off by default), so you can tweak it from whatever value it's set to for this game.

That way, if you find you're overpowered/underpowered, you can adjust it as you join the game, rather than going back into the game menus each time.
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#39
i wanna spawn with 200hp
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#40
(11-18-2017, 11:24 PM)thimo Wrote: i wanna spawn with 200hp

You are so OP that i would set the server force command to spawn you with 1hp.
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#41
(11-18-2017, 11:24 PM)thimo Wrote: i wanna spawn with 200hp
Check out competitive servers. They feature a warmup before the actual match, where you spawn with 100h and 100a.
[Image: 249.png] Latest track on soundcloud: Farewell - to a better Place (piano improvisation)
New to Xonotic? Check out my Newbie Corner!
<ZeRoQL> i think i got 1 proper quad and that cunt halogen fuck me over with a laser
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#42
Setting handicap is disgraceful, disrespective and insultive. I'm glad that not too many good players do it.
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#43
That's because there are more entertaining ways to be disrespective and insultive.

Such as using blaster only, or better yet: not using any weapons and winning 0 to -1.
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#44
(12-13-2017, 05:29 PM)Smilecythe Wrote: That's because there are more entertaining ways to be disrespective and insultive.

Such as using blaster only, or better yet: not using any weapons and winning 0 to -1.

Those are less insultive than handicap IMO.
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#45
(09-25-2017, 04:17 PM)martin-t Wrote: There's no point in fighting strong players, you're just wasting time when you can be spawnkilling slow noobs.

Of course there is. Your chances of winning are bigger if you take out the biggest threat first. If you focus on those slow noobs then that gives the strong player opportunity to gnaw you away from your stacks. When unarmed and unstacked, the strong players pose significantly less threat and are as valid for quick points as the newbies are. And if you prefer to think of DM as "racing to kill noobs the fastest" then think of hunting a strong player as "sabotaging your rival".
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#46
(12-13-2017, 04:05 PM)morosophos Wrote: Setting handicap is disgraceful, disrespective and insultive. I'm glad that not too many good players do it.

Could you elaborate how it is disgraceful, disrespective and insultive? We're talking about FFA DM here. How would I offend anyone if I set a handicap to myself so that I end up in the middle of the scoring board at the end of the game?
[Image: 249.png] Latest track on soundcloud: Farewell - to a better Place (piano improvisation)
New to Xonotic? Check out my Newbie Corner!
<ZeRoQL> i think i got 1 proper quad and that cunt halogen fuck me over with a laser
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#47
(12-14-2017, 03:39 PM)Halogene Wrote:
(12-13-2017, 04:05 PM)morosophos Wrote: Setting handicap is disgraceful, disrespective and insultive. I'm glad that not too many good players do it.

Could you elaborate how it is disgraceful, disrespective and insultive? We're talking about FFA DM here. How would I offend anyone if I set a handicap to myself so that I end up in the middle of the scoring board at the end of the game?

Cause it's like publicly tell "You're all rickety noobs and it's not fun to play with you full strength". I don't want to argue about that really, just wanted to mention how it looks from my noobish side.
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#48
(12-14-2017, 04:22 PM)morosophos Wrote:
(12-14-2017, 03:39 PM)Halogene Wrote:
(12-13-2017, 04:05 PM)morosophos Wrote: Setting handicap is disgraceful, disrespective and insultive. I'm glad that not too many good players do it.

Could you elaborate how it is disgraceful, disrespective and insultive? We're talking about FFA DM here. How would I offend anyone if I set a handicap to myself so that I end up in the middle of the scoring board at the end of the game?

Cause it's like publicly tell "You're all rickety noobs and it's not fun to play with you full strength". I don't want to argue about that really, just wanted to mention how it looks from my noobish side.

I've seen that sentiment seconded on my server before. I don't know about the European crowd.
Xonotic exists for a long time and low player count is the proof that nobody wants to play Xonotic since it is a bad game by default.
- Lyberta, 2017
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#49
(12-14-2017, 11:37 AM)Smilecythe Wrote:
(09-25-2017, 04:17 PM)martin-t Wrote: There's no point in fighting strong players, you're just wasting time when you can be spawnkilling slow noobs.

Of course there is. Your chances of winning are bigger if you take out the biggest threat first. If you focus on those slow noobs then that gives the strong player opportunity to gnaw you away from your stacks. When unarmed and unstacked, the strong players pose significantly less threat and are as valid for quick points as the newbies are. And if you prefer to think of DM as "racing to kill noobs the fastest" then think of hunting a strong player as "sabotaging your rival".

I m not sure it makes a noticeable difference. On public servers, there is usually me, one or two other competent players and like 5 newbies who always run towards the enemy with shotgun. If i kill one of the competent players, it'll barely slow him down because there are so many easy targets that he doesn't even need strong weapons or a good stack to keep getting kills fast.

It's similar with DM in campaign. The bots may not be good but winning DM with many of them is hard because they just get lots of kills from each other despite dying A LOT too. I think in DM you should lose 1 / (number_of_players - 1) points for each death. E.g. with 3 players it's -0.5 points per death - assuming you get killed by each of them roughly equally you give each of them your_number_of_deaths / 2 points which means statistically you're 0.5 points farther from winning with each death. The game would still end with 30 kills but the score would indicate who played DM well and who was just a frag farm.

Of course it doesn't solve the case where 10 players vote for a tiny map but then with more and more players the game is more and more about randomness anyway.

Similarly in 2 team TDM you should lose 1 point for each death - you just gave a point to the enemy team so you're hurting your team and it should be reflected in your personal score and by extension Elo. Note i am not saying your team should lose a point. Team score = number of kills of all its players. Personal score = kills - deaths.
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<packer> when i see martin-t's name my blood pressure increases

<[BOT]Hоtdоg> anyone here lives near martin?
<[BOT]Hоtdоg> will pay monies for shooting him
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#50
About handicap - it's better than nothing (nothing == clearing the server) but it feels really arbitrary - like "hmm, without handicap i win 30:5, with 1.5 i end up in the middle, let's see if i can still win with 1.2". What's even the point of playing if you can just decide whether you win or not? Dynamic handicap (with reasonable settings) that shows up in the scoreboard might be a bit better but i still think it's a crude temporary solution until we actually figure out a good public/casual balance.
[Image: 30381.jpg]

<packer> when i see martin-t's name my blood pressure increases

<[BOT]Hоtdоg> anyone here lives near martin?
<[BOT]Hоtdоg> will pay monies for shooting him
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