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Replacing spawn weapons

(05-21-2012, 01:18 PM)tZork Wrote: Im trying to stay out of this but i just cant stfu on a few points.

Statements along the lines of "two weapons are confusing for new players" or "newb's will be so baffled to laser-jumps" seem like a insult to most new ppl. sure it could take a game or two to grasp the concepts.. but come on, if above are real issues.. the kci is more faulty then the game Wink

Also there is a con of every sort of split/mash-up/mix/remove of weapons and weapon function:
While current way is far from perfect, its a system that works and everyone who play the game know how it works. Its very likely that substantial change to the spawn weapons has enough unexpected side-effects to make the current balance lopsided again. I would advocate caution with the core balance atm as it (before this batch of threads at least) finally seemed to have arrived at something that did not provoke constant re-balance talks.

Actually that was what I wanted to say. Thanks for putting in those words.
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<ZeRoQL> i think i got 1 proper quad and that cunt halogen fuck me over with a laser
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While I agree with the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" argument, I have to say that when I first started playing, I was pretty underwhelmed by the shotgun in comparison to the rest of the game design. I mean here's a game with futuristic weapons, some of which have amazing functionality, and you start with a regular shotgun with a slap for it's alt-fire. Very unimaginative, imo. And on top of that, having the alt-fire on a shotgun as a melee makes no sense at all, because a shotgun is already a close range weapon. It would have made far more sense to add the melee to the laser.

So yeah, the balance is great right now and I don't want to see it messed up, but the shotgun is still lame.
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I will be working on a prototype design soon (maybe in a week or so)-- I've listened to the suggestions/comments/concerns across the forums/IRC/etc and I do believe I can make something which works quite well for almost everyone.... I just don't have time to reply to all of these posts and explain all of my ideas without any kind of representation of what i'm trying to do.

So because of that, keep a look out for a video of the prototype design -- I'll keep you posted on the development of it from there, but there is no way I can keep a discussion going like this.
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Seems totally reasonable, reading all this would take hours.

Looking forward to what you come up with Smile
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My name gripe with internet forums is that keeping up with posts is an almighty pain-in-the-ass!

Multiple threads could be made from this one HUGE thread.
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(05-27-2012, 03:03 PM)rocknroll237 Wrote: My name gripe with internet forums is that keeping up with posts is an almighty pain-in-the-ass!

Multiple threads could be made from this one HUGE thread.

There are multiple threads that spawned from this, but i don't think we need a thread for each suggestions.
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Remember that the shotgun melee is actually a very close-range weapon, nerfing it would make it pretty useless, since people aren't that eager anyway to swap to their shotgun in the middle of a fight. It also makes the fighting more fast-paced in beginning, and actually gives you a chance to do something when all weapons are already picked up for the moment.

Once I was playing while a new player joined. First thing he said literally:
Quote:Finally a game that doesn't have a useless starting weapon!

Besides, most people don't find it hard to get used to how things are at the moment, so changing/nerfing the shotgun/laser might only cause problems for the ones that already got used to it.



If there would be one change I would maybe approve, it would be a seperate melee weapon, that should have some kind of shield as secondary that stays for half a second, and with a very low refire rate. It should look like some kind of energy blade, look at the one from Tribes Vengeance for example (picture below), but then also with an obvious place for a shield to generate (and with a softer look). [Image: EnergyBlade.jpg]

The shotgun should get more powerful then, maybe some kind of combined attack as secondary, that fires a more accurate and powerful round, but also consumes more ammo and has a low refire rate. The laser should stay the same, I really love it, it's even a pretty good weapon to kill with if you use it the right way Smile

It would be necessary to assign a new key though, maybe some kind of special key for the melee then, and keep the rest as it is now.
[Image: 4766.png]
[My personal website: AquaNova ] - <> - [Ingame: <PsyX> :::: <-Archer-< :::: ]
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Oh dear Lord, no.

Seriously ... somebody out there seems to really hate me. Why do you constantly try to push xonotic in an even worse direction >.<

Oh dear ... i'm definetly not capable of constructive feedback to ...that ...

I think we should stick to the radical weaponsystem cortez suggested in his first reply ...

Oh my, am i flabbergasted ... i miss nexuiz 2.3 :'(
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(06-05-2012, 12:06 PM)killgenerals Wrote: Oh dear Lord, no.

Seriously ... somebody out there seems to really hate me. Why do you constantly try to push xonotic in an even worse direction >.<

Oh dear ... i'm definetly not capable of constructive feedback to ...that ...

I think we should stick to the radical weaponsystem cortez suggested in his first reply ...

Oh my, am i flabbergasted ... i miss nexuiz 2.3 :'(

I'm not trying to do that...

If you read carefully, I said IF there would be a plan for a seperate melee weapon, it should looks similar to that, and have this and that behaviour.

But nobody said there will be actually a seperate melee weapon.

To be honest, I'm not waiting for anything to change, because I like it as it is now. The shotgun is actually useful, so is the laser. Both of them can be lethal in the right hands, though it's still a good idea to grab some other weapons.

Sound pretty much balanced to me to be honest.
[Image: 4766.png]
[My personal website: AquaNova ] - <> - [Ingame: <PsyX> :::: <-Archer-< :::: ]
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I also think the current system is close to perfection or at least on a very good way, so I'd prefer small tweaks to fine tune it over a radical redesign (and yes, merging shotgun and laser is radical for me).

That being said, a lot of what I consider close to perfect now has Samual written on it, so I trust that I'd be able to like what he comes up with.

I just don't see the point for applying radical changes, even if the changes were enjoyable, as I enjoy the current system very much and we are just building up a solid player base that already got accustomed to it.
[Image: 249.png] Latest track on soundcloud: Farewell - to a better Place (piano improvisation)
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<ZeRoQL> i think i got 1 proper quad and that cunt halogen fuck me over with a laser
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That said, it should be made clear that Samual is developing and alternative to what we have now, not necessarily a replacement.
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(06-05-2012, 04:41 PM)tZork Wrote: ... not necessarily a replacement.

i think Samual has a different opinion on that.
<Samual> I am the most unprofessional developer ever
<bluez> halogene, you make awesome music, but you have no clue about ctf.
<Halogene> I didn't know mappers include some mysterious waypoints so members of the BOT clan can navigate a map?
<divVerent> if you don't pay for a premium account, your movement speed is limited to 100qu/s
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I won't develop it if it's not wanted as a replacement, of course-- that would be wasting my time... i'm merely looking for solutions to problems which exist in the default design, and if (for example) this method isn't wanted then i'll pursue another method.

also: here's what I said on IRC:
Quote:[17:42:03] <Samual> thing is, there certainly ARE flaws with it
[17:42:28] <Samual> no one really denies that Nexuiz has BAD design, i.e. with the ammo system especially
[17:42:37] <Samual> it's no where near perfection
[17:42:58] <Samual> we just work with it as it is, ignorant of potentially making it better

There are just way too many flaws with the system as it is now, both logically and in sense of gameplay design-- some things really MUST change, or else we'll be stuck with this bad design forever.
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Regardless Cortez666, this sort of change needs to go tough the core team before it happens and to do that there need to be a prototype to test so ppl can test it and say what they think of it (instead of ranting on and on abt what they'd think they would think abt it ; )
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(06-05-2012, 04:55 PM)Samual Wrote: some things really MUST change, or else we'll be stuck with this bad design forever.

hey but it worked the last 7 years!
<Samual> I am the most unprofessional developer ever
<bluez> halogene, you make awesome music, but you have no clue about ctf.
<Halogene> I didn't know mappers include some mysterious waypoints so members of the BOT clan can navigate a map?
<divVerent> if you don't pay for a premium account, your movement speed is limited to 100qu/s
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But the shotgun now isn't exactly the same one as 7 years ago, is it?
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http://www.quickmeme.com/meme/3plic1/
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The only thing I like about the shotgun is that it's a hitscan finisher. Everything else about the design and implementation of the weapon is very mediocre and should be evaluated.


This is what I've thought about it since I started playing Xonotic. Also, I'm looking at it from a fresh player's perspective, since I didn't play Nexuiz first. I have high hopes for this new Laser design. I don't think the shotgun really adds any flavor to the game. The only concern should be: would the new weapon actually improve the game?
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for those who didn't know shot gun in (late) nexuiz was ...

primary -- normal shot (faster but not as powerful as xonxons shotgun shot)
secondary -- three quick shots ... then a longer delay

I disagree with the merging for several reasons ... some logical ... some not ... but I would like to say ...

1 -- I LIKE spawning with two weapons ... xonotic is the only game I know that gives you 2 spawn weapons (three attacks right off from spawn (sgn laser mele)) idk if mele was going to be kept for the merge

2 -- having laser separate forces a delay between laser jumping and shooting ... laser jumping leaves you vulnerable

3 -- I like the shotgun model ... its so ... ... iconic?

... I think shotgun is great right now ... not mediocre ... If anything were mediocre it would be whether or not the new laser model fits to the laser function... ... but lets not take this off topic ...
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If you don't want changes, why not play Nexuiz? At least give him the chance to present a prototype before talking it down ffs
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Laser could be laser/melee, but what would that make of shotgun? Obsolete weapon with scarce ammo. Shotgun Cannon will probably never get implemented so shotgun could be a proper weapon that eats bullets, that would make it slightly saner.
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(06-06-2012, 12:31 PM)hutty Wrote: 1 -- I LIKE spawning with two weapons ... xonotic is the only game I know that gives you 2 spawn weapons (three attacks right off from spawn (sgn laser mele)) idk if mele was going to be kept for the merge

I'm assuming you mean spawning with 2 projectile weapons? Because there are plenty of games that give 2 weapons at spawn. And sadly, the laser secondary is useless to those that use weapon specific keybinds effectively, and a crutch for anyone else.

Quote:2 -- having laser separate forces a delay between laser jumping and shooting ... laser jumping leaves you vulnerable

This delay you speak of does not exist. Everyone knows that it's faster to switch to a different weapon than to refire.

Quote:3 -- I like the shotgun model ... its so ... ... iconic?

I'd say it's overused. The shotgun has been in so many FPS since DOOM. You can say it's iconic because of that, but to add something just because other games used it does not make sense. Personally, I think the current model looks odd, and at 115 FOV it sticks out too far, and both fire modes are generic and unimaginative.
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(06-06-2012, 03:50 PM)W4RP1G Wrote: the laser secondary is useless to those that use weapon specific keybinds effectively, and a crutch for anyone else.
Thanks, warpig, just because you only use keybinds to switch weapons doesn't mean others do so to the same extent.

I use the laser secondary very much.
Laser juggling is a fun part too.


For all this discussion I am a bit concerend about all the changes going on while the game is already on the street!

You know, players get used to their way of playing and then BLAM! new stuff, new game... this holds quite a potential for frustration.
ofcourse, the pro players and beginners (who came after the change) will catch on, but.... think of the others, the mid level intermediate players..


The most thing Xonotic (was: Nexuiz) needs is Players, new players, lots of.
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(06-06-2012, 02:40 PM)asy7um Wrote: If you don't want changes, why not play Nexuiz? At least give him the chance to present a prototype before talking it down ffs

Actually I agree with asy7um here. I myself am not very comfortable with the idea to merge shotgun and laser, too, but let's see what Samual comes up with. I think the community can very well put some trust into his judgement given his work on the current weapon balance.
[Image: 249.png] Latest track on soundcloud: Farewell - to a better Place (piano improvisation)
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<ZeRoQL> i think i got 1 proper quad and that cunt halogen fuck me over with a laser
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I agree, I mean, I'm not super excited about merging two weapons, but there are major issues with current design. Namely:

-Shotgun is OP for a starting weapon,
-Shotgun uses its own ammo, and is the only weapon to use that kind of ammo, which is iffy.

First could theoretically be tweaked without merging, less so for the second. Unless you go cheap and have two weapons with infinite ammo, which is just odd.
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