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Spawn system

#26
Quote:I would like to encourage people to name other maps where spawn killing is known to be an issue. Maybe it's not just an isolated issue of hub and stormkeep?

Also, what other problems are perceived with the current spawn system (apart from not getting to spawn in center area of fuse)?


Maybe downer is the only other map where it could be an issue. All the spawns are concentrated into one area of the map.

Quote:What I'm proposing seems to me a very small change if compared to actively punishing the spawnkiller, SmileCythe and SPLAT are acting like it would change the game entirely... maybe I'm missing something.

The current spawn system is too predictable and repetitive. That I can agree on. Being in a certain spot at a certain time will pretty much always guarantee that the other player spawns at the exact location. Having fully random spawn system, or one similar to QL (closest spawns are removed, spawns player between a few furthest locations) would be acceptable. Any sort of change to a spawned players damage taken, or sort of adverse effect on the damage dealer is absolutely UNACCEPTABLE. Any sort of 'small' gameplay change can have a profound impact on the game. You're punishing me for trying to frag someone? Think about how ridiculous that sounds. Its a deathmatch. The whole goal is getting the most frags at the end of 10 mins by whatever means necessary. I feel like a damn broken record at this point and I don't know how many times I have to repeat it. Other than two maps previously mentioned its relatively uncommon even among high level players.

Spawn kills are going to happen no matter what. No competitive player will accept your proposed changes. Deal with it. Period. If you want to make your own servers with your changes feel free. But it'll only confuse players and further split the community. And they'll never make it to HUB servers or any server Packer runs. Its futile to argue anymore at this point.

Lets move on to a more practical discussion: How should we determine how the player spawns across the map? And the allotted time given to a dead player... I think 5 seconds is appropriate to try and dodge an incoming rocket+nex combo.
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#27
I see lots of strong words but few arguments in that post, Splat - and actually I see no reason to shout down terencehill for the suggestion he made. I did not yet find out from your reply why the change he proposed (shield absorbing part of the damage) would be affecting the gameplay in an unacceptable way.

From my point of view there would simply be no need to implement a shield that may have unwanted side effects on the gameplay (which would yet have to be identified), if we just fix the maps where spawnraping is a problem.

With that being said we'll have to decide whether it is a good thing that the surviving player can control/know for sure where the fragged player will respawn (pro: allows for neat controlling skills; cons: system is prone to producing hub-like situations in future maps, too). If we decide that we want to go for more game control, then we just fix the maps - if we on the other hand decide that 100% control over the respawn point will sooner or later produce more hub-like issues, then we have to add some randomness to the spawn system. From all the proposals of adding randomness it seems most feasible to me to remove closest spawn points altogether and distribute probability to respawn on the other spawnpoints with the furthest spawn point getting highest probability to respawn. This would of course mean we still had to fix the problematic maps.
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#28
What about non-duel games?
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#29
I think the best system would be "not nearest and not twice in same spot, but otherwise random". This way you would still be able to know (literally) spawn points where your opponent doesn't spawn. But this would still not fix maps like Hub or Downer as far as spawn rape goes. Only way to fix that is to adapt your play style, learn to improvise from different circumstances and in general use your head. If you're in a position to lure your opponent to finish you off, do that in a place where he can't get in position for follow-up spawn kills. If your opponent is too fast for you to run away, practice being faster and so on.

(01-19-2016, 02:06 PM)Lightbringer Wrote: What about non-duel games?
Spawn killing is quite trivial in modes like DM and CTF, it's only significant in competitive duel and TDM. I wouldn't mind a spawn shield in DM/CTF which already to my knowledge exists in most servers anyway. Especially in instagib servers. Those modes have so many more circumstances and objectives that brainstorming a more complex spawn protection to them is pointless and of no value.

(01-18-2016, 07:52 PM)terencehill Wrote: What I'm proposing seems to me a very small change if compared to actively punishing the spawnkiller, SmileCythe and SPLAT are acting like it would change the game entirely... maybe I'm missing something.
I'm not denying your proposal only because it would change the game, but because on top of doing that, it wouldn't even provide what you want. If you're the kind of player that gets spawn killed a lot, you would still get spawn killed anyway even with some funky shield/protection implemented. Because spawn killing is not bound to the first milliseconds/seconds, your survival past a spawn status is determined by your opponent's actions based on your actions. The process of spawn killing can in theory stretch up to 30 seconds or even more when you're denied of all items and weapons to use in a fight. For your idea to work as intended, players would need to be invulnerable to a point where they get their hands on a weapon and that would add all kinds of unimaginable issues. Bottom line is, adding seconds or so protection would not make difference to your experience, but it would piss the hell out of everyone else. That's why it's a stupid idea.

It does not necessarily change the game, but it's a pointless feature which fails to provide and even if it did, it would be for a minority of people who lack particular skill sets that are signature features of these kinds of games. The problem is not with the game, it's with you and what you seem to have missed is that spawn killing is not the only reason why (if) people in your position lose most of their games. I don't know how to be any more clearer than this.
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#30
@Smilecythe - I like this concept! I'd like to see it in practice though, so hopefully it isn't too hard to implement and subsequently test.
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#31
We will give the plumber what he wants:

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Make it happen Mario
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#32
(01-20-2016, 05:16 AM)Smilecythe Wrote: But this would still not fix maps like Hub or Downer as far as spawn rape goes.

I don't think we can entirely remove spawnrape from those maps. Even if we slightly move the "open" spawn near mortar to remove nex shots across the map, the maps are so small and such that it's really easy to reach your opponent after a spawn.

But then control plays a lot in how much you can spawnkill the opponent, and skill of the opponent how fast he can get out of that situation.
So i'd argue it's fine, and just part of the maps, as long as the obvious horrible spawn situations are somewhat toned down. In contrast there's maps where it's barely a problem anyway.
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#33
(01-21-2016, 03:49 PM)Ploplo Wrote: I don't think we can entirely remove spawnrape from those maps. Even if we slightly move the "open" spawn near mortar to remove nex shots across the map, the maps are so small and such that it's really easy to reach your opponent after a spawn.
Tbh I find it annoying how lightly people take small changes to spawn points and system. Reason I didn't like Mirio's spawn edition version (which takes after QL) was because racing to MH became easier from Mortar spawn and often you would spawn to the electro rooms side in upper rocket area or next to the mortar teleporter's exit, which A. delays your run towards MH B. adds more spawn variables to the other side which added a lot of pressure to rush from lower rocket's side. Lot of Aerowalk matches start with players racing to MH and 50a with equal terms from both ends of the map. With randomized spawn system this will change and a lot of initial spawns between players who tend to race for the items will be up to luck. If spawn 100% furthest was good for anything, it was for making initial spawns fair. If there's a way to have that system for first spawns each match, then it would be the most ideal in my opinion. edit: In fact I think the current spawn system is good for initial spawns because there's variety and most of the time the spawns are fair.

Mirio's version also included armor spawn changes which also sucked, it too takes after QL balance where you don't have tiered armors or limits. The reason 50a or yellow armor (cpm/quakeworld) can be next to MH is because if you just picked 100a/Red armor you can't pick 50a immediately afterwards.
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#34
So initially the first spawns should be furthest away, then after that random and no spawning twice in a row in the same spot? I really like the concept but my question is: is that even programmable?
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#35
(01-22-2016, 10:26 AM)Smilecythe Wrote: Tbh I find it annoying how lightly people take small changes to spawn points and system.

I'm not taking it so lightly, i do realize how much it can impact a game overall. But i'm not that knowledgeable of the game to know exactly how each spawn point is important and why. (And it does not matter all that much at my level too)
It was just an "if", i'm not saying moving that spawn in hub is the right solution.

However, don't you agree that having that spawn point that is so easy to shoot across the map is a bad thing? And if yes, would you change it, and how? (if moving it is not an option) Or maybe you think that having the changes to the spawn system that you mention would correct that problem on their own?
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#36
(01-22-2016, 12:32 PM)SPLAT Wrote: So initially the first spawns should be furthest away, then after that random and no spawning twice in a row in the same spot? I really like the concept but my question is: is that even programmable?


We have VR, we have 4ghz+ processors and in the future we will most likely have quantum computers.

Yes of course something that simple is programmable!! Wink

Welcome to the future SPLAT, my friend!
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#37
First of all with "spawn kill" I mean a frag achieved in a very short period of time by attacking the opponent right when respawning without giving him any chance to dodge the attacks. This kind of kill is the most unfair and hateful because the opponent can't do anything, no matter how skilled he is.

(01-20-2016, 05:16 AM)Smilecythe Wrote: I'm not denying your proposal only because it would change the game, but because on top of doing that, it wouldn't even provide what you want.
Implementing my idea spawnkills are a bit harder to achieve, therefore they would happen less often (how much depending on how strong the spawnshield is).

(01-20-2016, 05:16 AM)Smilecythe Wrote: If you're the kind of player that gets spawn killed a lot, you would still get spawn killed anyway even with some funky shield/protection implemented. Because spawn killing is not bound to the first milliseconds/seconds, your survival past a spawn status is determined by your opponent's actions based on your actions. The process of spawn killing can in theory stretch up to 30 seconds or even more when you're denied of all items and weapons to use in a fight.
Better this kind of spawnkill (extended version) than insta spawnkills: at least the respawned player had a chance to fight back / run away as opposed to face an insta death.

My point is: respawning in an exposed spot constitutes per se an unfair disadvantage, because you can't defend yourself. It becomes effective when the opponent is skilled enough to take advantage of it. This disadvantage should be compensated somehow.

Well, all I can do is implementing my idea and make it available for whoever wants to try it out.
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#38
Quote:First of all with "spawn kill" I mean a frag achieved in a very short period of time by attacking the opponent right when respawning without giving him any chance to dodge the attacks. This kind of kill is the most unfair and hateful because the opponent can't do anything, no matter how skilled he is.


It's not unfair in the slightest. Your given the tools to survive and its your job not to die. Maybe you should do a better job at being less predictable as a player.

Hateful? I forgot, deathmatch was all about loving thy enemy Tongue


Quote:Better this kind of spawnkill (extended version) than insta spawnkills: at least the respawned player had a chance to fight back / run away as opposed to face an insta death.


No... this is not better at all. It slows down the game and is aimed at players who have invested the time in understanding how the game should be played. You keep trying to give a lesser skilled player some artificial advantage because he might get mad that he died in a game. Adding a spawn shield for a new player is not going to 'make or break' it for them. They either like game for what it is and work on improving or they find another game to enjoy. You are just pissing off people who actually enjoy the game. Stop acting like the game needs to hold your hand. Put on your big boy pants and learn how the game is played instead of trying to please these nonexistent players who are 'hatefully' fragged by evil spawn killers.

Quote:My point is: respawning in an exposed spot constitutes per se an unfair disadvantage, because you can't defend yourself. It becomes effective when the opponent is skilled enough to take advantage of it. This disadvantage should be compensated somehow.


What if he spawns near me and I have low health but I can do no damage to him? What if he spawns near an important item? He can just run to it knowing he can't be punished because he has a period of invulnerability. How is that fair to me? I worked hard for that frag only to see the tables turned because I can do no damage when he respawns. You spawn with two weapons off the bat and blaster allows you to give yourself a boost or slow down your opponent. Stop making fresh spawns out to be so disadvantageous. They are the strongest of any arena fps game I have ever played.

Quote:Well, all I can do is implementing my idea and make it available for whoever wants to try it out.


That is your right. But I can tell you right now it will not make it very far.
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#39
Could you please stop attacking terencehill and disqualifying his opinions by insinuating that he doesn't play skillful enough in order to argument here? That is in no way constructive.

I agree that a spawnshield of some sorts is disadvantageous in case the player can spawn near the opponent and can have a huge impact on the duel. On the other hand, if we keep the spawnsystem as it is, the other player cannot spawn near the opponent. Also note that I don't think the idea is to give the spawning player a shield that lasts for 5 or 10 seconds so the player can race around the map and get important items without having to fear to get fragged easily. A spawnshield should, if anything, just protect to get fragged right away by the other player predicting the respawn point and shooting rockets/mortar/whatever at that spot so the respawning player is dead before being able to move at all.

I think the skill argument doesn't count for that situation, as even if two top skilled players have a duel, a match may depend on whether one player (be it the slightly less skilled one) happens to land a frag at a place where he can force the respawn point and start a spawn kill series of 10 frags in a row or so. That way the slightly less skilled player could force a win just by pure luck (being at the right spot first) and exploiting the respawn system.

However, I'd rather fix the respawn system or the maps instead of a spawn shield, since if the case can happen that you shoot at a freshly respawned player then it would feel totally irritating if the weapon doesn't do full damage (as it feels totally bogus (to me) with the full spawn shield already, too).
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#40
Quote:Could you please stop attacking terencehill and disqualifying his opinions by insinuating that he doesn't play skillful enough in order to argument here? That is in no way constructive.
When I refer to another players skill level and how he needs to improve I am not referring to terrancehill. I harbor no ill will towards anyone. I'm speaking to the imaginary people who complain about being spawn killed on a consistent basis so much so that we should change the entire system of the game based of them not being adept enough (nor having realistic expectations) to play it. Which by the way, these same people don't even stick around long enough to enjoy the game. Futile to listen to their demands.

Quote:A spawnshield should, if anything, just protect to get fragged right away by the other player predicting the respawn point and shooting rockets/mortar/whatever at that spot so the respawning player is dead before being able to move at all.


Yes I understand what a spawnshield is. What you guys don't seem to understand that it is a ridiculous way to approach the situation. Adding a shield is not going to do the following:

A) Make you a better player
B) Solve any issue regarding why they don't enjoy the game in the first place
C) Add any depth to the game

Advice for newer/lesser players: If you are a player who is bothered by being fragged over and over again (which is completely understandable) then just leave and find someone else to play. Or you can ask other players what you can do better. You can also ask them to enable a handicap that way if they try and frag you off the portal it won't do enough damage. Heck, I don't even recommend playing someone who is that much better than you. You will probably learn nothing and not enjoy the game. Try and find players who are close to your skill or just a bit better than you. You will improve your game and you can start challenging other players.

Quote:I think the skill argument doesn't count for that situation, as even if two top skilled players have a duel, a match may depend on whether one player (be it the slightly less skilled one) happens to land a frag at a place where he can force the respawn point and start a spawn kill series of 10 frags in a row or so.


Come on that's never happened. I got one frag against a better player and turned it into a series of 10 spawn kills in a row? The chances of that happening, aside from possibly aerowalk (EVEN IF), extraordinarily unlikely. Definitely not a solid enough example to base your argument on. Nevertheless if I was still somehow able to predict perfectly every room you spawned in 10 times in a row AND land every single shot, you would still die. Leaving the off shot chance that I do hit your spawn portal with a perfectly aimed shot (with being at the right angle and guessed correctly), I see no reason why my opponent should have that damaged mitigated. Because its 'not fair'? Huh

Quote:That way the slightly less skilled player could force a win just by pure luck (being at the right spot first) and exploiting the respawn system.
99% of the time you will win because you were the more skillful player or just played better that time. Yes the spawn system can be exploited in some way but you guys are making it out to seem WAY more broken than it really is. Don't base these changes off of unlikely scenarios or people who can't handle dying once in a while.

Live long enough to get fragged and you might get to see some frags yourself Smile
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#41
(01-25-2016, 08:04 PM)SPLAT Wrote:
(01-25-2016, 09:18 AM)terencehill Wrote: My point is: respawning in an exposed spot constitutes per se an unfair disadvantage, because you can't defend yourself. It becomes effective when the opponent is skilled enough to take advantage of it. This disadvantage should be compensated somehow.

What if he spawns near me and I have low health but I can do no damage to him? What if he spawns near an important item? He can just run to it knowing he can't be punished because he has a period of invulnerability. How is that fair to me? I worked hard for that frag only to see the tables turned because I can do no damage when he respawns.
You could have replied like that if I were taking about full spawnshields...

(01-25-2016, 08:04 PM)SPLAT Wrote: You spawn with two weapons off the bat and blaster allows you to give yourself a boost or slow down your opponent. Stop making fresh spawns out to be so disadvantageous. They are the strongest of any arena fps game I have ever played.
You missed the point, please read again what I said. Paradoxically, even if your enemy would respawn with all the weapons and with 500 health it would still be unfair if you hit him in the exact moment he respawns.

(01-25-2016, 08:04 PM)SPLAT Wrote: It's not unfair in the slightest. Your given the tools to survive and its your job not to die. Maybe you should do a better job at being less predictable as a player.
Still missing the point. What tools? Even if you spawn with a vortex in your hands you won't be able to use it effectively since you don't have the time to aim, you barely have the time to realize where you are and you are already half-dead! You don't have any job, you are just at the mercy of events (in THAT moment).

(01-25-2016, 08:04 PM)SPLAT Wrote:
(01-25-2016, 06:19 PM)Halogene Wrote: Could you please stop attacking terencehill and disqualifying his opinions by insinuating that he doesn't play skillful enough in order to argument here? That is in no way constructive.
When I refer to another players skill level and how he needs to improve I am not referring to terrancehill. I harbor no ill will towards anyone. I'm speaking to the imaginary people who complain about being spawn killed on a consistent basis so much so that we should change the entire system of the game based of them not being adept enough (nor having realistic expectations) to play it. Which by the way, these same people don't even stick around long enough to enjoy the game. Futile to listen to their demands.
I'm trying to approach the issue in an objective manner, considering demands of both skillful players and not so good players (that's why I stopped talking about full spawnshield), I really don't aim to protect a player for the sake of him being less skillful than the opponent.

(01-25-2016, 08:04 PM)SPLAT Wrote:
Quote:A spawnshield should, if anything, just protect to get fragged right away by the other player predicting the respawn point and shooting rockets/mortar/whatever at that spot so the respawning player is dead before being able to move at all.
Yes I understand what a spawnshield is. What you guys don't seem to understand that it is a ridiculous way to approach the situation. Adding a shield is not going to do the following:

A) Make you a better player
B) Solve any issue regarding why they don't enjoy the game in the first place
C) Add any depth to the game
The above argument is "ridiculous" as you can say that for many small things that are part of the game; if you put all of them together they contribute to make the whole game fairer and more enjoyable.
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#42
tl;dr test Smilecythes suggestion. /end thread. For the time being.
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#43
Well at this point it is clear to me that were never going to agree on anything. I'm going to leave it at that. I've said my two cents. I would've have liked to see other opinions as well on the current system and how they would like to see things change.

Anywho, lets get the ball rolling and see what kind of results we can produce with a new system in place.
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#44
(01-26-2016, 02:26 PM)kojn^ Wrote: tl;dr test Smilecythes suggestion. /end thread. For the time being.

It must be implemented first, I could do it myself. I've already implemented my idea in a git branch.

(01-26-2016, 03:24 PM)SPLAT Wrote: I would've have liked to see other opinions as well on the current system and how they would like to see things change.
We ended up talking only about spawnshields, nobody else came out with another idea even slightly different from tweaking the spawnpoint selection method.
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#45
I agree we should have a look at Smilecythe's suggestion. Actually I believe there are a couple of ways to fix the issue, if Smilecythe's suggestion isn't working out or has undesired side effects we might as well just go with allowing the respawning player to time its own respawn (within a given timeframe, like 5 secs), as we do already on some servers. This might prove equally effective, since the spawnkill rape works only to full frustration if you manage to pinpoint the other player at the exact time of spawning.

(01-25-2016, 08:04 PM)SPLAT Wrote: I'm speaking to the imaginary people who complain about being spawn killed on a consistent basis so much so that we should change the entire system of the game based of them not being adept enough (nor having realistic expectations) to play it. Which by the way, these same people don't even stick around long enough to enjoy the game. Futile to listen to their demands.

Just wanting to comment on this part. You might speak to the imaginary people, but I'm right here. I'm with this community since 2008, and do not plan to leave anywhere to anytime soon. And I don't like spawnkill rape.

Does my opinion qualify?

Also, didn't know there's a minimum skill/adeptness to play this game. We should maybe add this to the game's minimum requirements.
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#46
Smilecythes suggestion seems pretty fair and okay for me.
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#47
I didn't read the whole topic but I can say this:

THE F*UCK FIX THIS SPAWN SYSTEM ASAP!

Man! I showed this game to some friends and they simply don't understand including myself how you couldn't make it work for over 5 years Xonotic's existence.
Priority number one, make this game playable.

It's simple, I also do programming it's dead simple,
if player 1 = spot1 then player2 = spot 2.
for over 5 years theres no spawn system, shame, no doubts this game has only 10 active players in total.
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#48
The game is open source, feel free to submit a patch at https://gitlab.com/xonotic/xonotic-data.pk3dir
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#49
(03-04-2016, 07:46 AM)Champion_The Wrote: It's simple, I also do programming it's dead simple

Then do as Mario suggested and code a replacement. I look forward to reviewing your patches.

(03-04-2016, 07:46 AM)Champion_The Wrote: for over 5 years theres no spawn system, shame, no doubts this game has only 10 active players in total.

Perhaps my math is off, but stats says that over 300 players played yesterday alone. I wonder if 10 players are hacking our rudimentary code to make the populace seem much larger! Maybe you could help code the fix for that too...

In all seriousness, you need to change your tone. We work on this game as a hobby, for free. It is quite rude of you to insult our work in non-constructive ways. There's also solutions to your complaints: don't play offending maps or use the spawn system itself to avoid your particular situation. For example, avoid the urge to respawn immediately...just wait a second! You'll often throw off your opponent's spawn-frag timings with that.
asyyy^ | are you releated to chuck norris?
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#50
I would contribute for sure but I don't do C programming, I'm a Rails developer.

How can I feel when cirruz beats me over and over on spawn kills that hurts so much, palm face!
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