[SUGGESTION] Laser Jump - Will it Blend?

Yes, it was inevitable, someone would complain, people already have. I won't rant, I just want to leave a few points:

1. As it is, laser jumping is a very hard task, it requires an exactly timed jump with an exactly timed fire. This wouldn't be much of an issue as a change if not for #2.

2. Half the splash push is making a large number of jumps impossible, e.g. the upper platform on dance. It requires two shots, one on the ground and one off the wall to get up there.

3. Laser jumping is awesome fun. It's one of the staples of Xonotic. It's what distinguishes us from Warsow. It makes the maps a ton of fun. It adds awesome acrobatic tricks. It allows a greater range of motion. It gives me greater range. It makes scaling tall heights a fun endevour. You get the point.

It's the only change I don't like. Everything has been awesome, I'm not kidding. Y'all have done an amazing job. It's just missing that one piece of the perfect puzzle. I know this can be changed serverside, but that means learning two different approaches to the same map. The mortar does way too much damage. The laser was perfect where it was, I wish we could keep it that way.

Again, this is the only "thing" I can complain about, here's to the success of Xonotic, it just keeps gettin' awesomer(word?).

Oh, and:
"That is the question!"

Yes, it was inevitable, someone would complain, people already have. I won't rant, I just want to leave a few points:

1. As it is, laser jumping is a very hard task, it requires an exactly timed jump with an exactly timed fire. This wouldn't be much of an issue as a change if not for #2.

2. Half the splash push is making a large number of jumps impossible, e.g. the upper platform on dance. It requires two shots, one on the ground and one off the wall to get up there.

3. Laser jumping is awesome fun. It's one of the staples of Xonotic. It's what distinguishes us from Warsow. It makes the maps a ton of fun. It adds awesome acrobatic tricks. It allows a greater range of motion. It gives me greater range. It makes scaling tall heights a fun endevour. You get the point.

It's the only change I don't like. Everything has been awesome, I'm not kidding. Y'all have done an amazing job. It's just missing that one piece of the perfect puzzle. I know this can be changed serverside, but that means learning two different approaches to the same map. The mortar does way too much damage. The laser was perfect where it was, I wish we could keep it that way.

Again, this is the only "thing" I can complain about, here's to the success of Xonotic, it just keeps gettin' awesomer(word?).

Oh, and:
"That is the question!"

Before starting a game, punch this into your console:

exec physicsLeeStricklin.cfg
exec balanceLeeStricklin.cfg

Lol, yeah, but each server will force the default settings won't it? Or can I "cheat" like that?

Lol, yeah, but each server will force the default settings won't it? Or can I "cheat" like that?

lol could get more admins to be aware of these settings and have them run them instead of the defaults. In my honest opinion, the defaults are going to annoy the hell out of a lot of people migrating from Nexuiz when Xonotic hits beta. Mine were intended to be more Nexuiz 2.4-like. The only major issue that seems to surround my settings is people losing control at high speeds since they don't know how to use their strafe keys with the mouse for turning (to do sharp turns, strafe in the direction your turning) and they seem to think that you HAVE TO (just like in the defaults) bunny hop everywhere constantly even though your not totally immobilized (just like in the defaults) while running. The weapons are also more rock/paper/scissors balanced instead of having a Quake 3-like heirarchy and there are no "bonus" or "super" weapons that I neglected, save the fireball and TAG Seeker that still haven't really found their place in the game yet. It should also be noted that I haven't found any maps broken under my settings, can't say that for the defaults! lol

Well I know in the US on the HOCTF server, I'll be using experimental physics and settings to figure out what I think is best. I assume other server owners will be doing the same. I've heard the mantra "Xonotic is not Nexuiz", which is true. But it is a game that comes from Nexuiz and it's taking the community with it. Dramatic changes to gameplay shouldn't be happening in 1.0. By the time we get to Xonotic 1.5 or 2.0, after lots of experimentation, I expect the community itself will figure out the best balance to go with. Something will become the defacto standard. The only downside is that Xonotic maps are being designed based on the current settings (with the laser reduced).

It is my understanding (just hearing through the grapevine, I don't know if this is fact) that the laser reduction was brought about after an observation that most gameplay in CTF matches is done in the air. This was considered a problem because most of the weapons are not suited for air fighting. With the laser reduction and physics changes in Xonotic, you can still laser off walls pretty well and gain horizontal speed, but it's harder to separate yourself from the ground.

I agree with the "problem" of gameplay being mostly in the air in Nexuiz. I disagree with the laser reduction being a good solution (if that truly is the reason for it), at least not THAT much laser reduction. It seems too severe. I would much rather see some weapons changed or replaced, like replace/change the machinegun, the hagar and come up with something more appropriate than the lightning gun (I never liked the lightning gun in Quake). I believe we can come up with better weapons than we have now, perhaps ones that have more use in the air.

But I think major changes to weapons should not happen in v1.0 of a fork. That makes more sense for v1.5 or v2.0.

Well I know in the US on the HOCTF server, I'll be using experimental physics and settings to figure out what I think is best. I assume other server owners will be doing the same.

I don't know what new players think if you join server a) and then another day server b) , which is using very different physics.. "Uhm wtf happenend to the game " ? I guess merging all positive things of all the balance.cfgs floating around would be a good solution.

It is my understanding (just hearing through the grapevine, I don't know if this is fact) that the laser reduction was brought about after an observation that most gameplay in CTF matches is done in the air. This was considered a problem because most of the weapons are not suited for air fighting. With the laser reduction and physics changes in Xonotic, you can still laser off walls pretty well and gain horizontal speed, but it's harder to separate yourself from the ground

If thats really the reason then I want to see the people who decided that to do a capture in CTF without being in air on a full server (with decent players of course). The laser is Nexuiz is the most fun in gameplay to hunt people fast, to shoot each other while in air (isn't it awesome to shoot someone if you are flying?), to run away.. . I never understood why everything has to be changed, which works actually pretty good in Nexuiz.

But I think major changes to weapons should not happen in v1.0 of a fork. That makes more sense for v1.5 or v2.0.

I think if you add weapons in fruther versions it will end up like TAG Seeker, HLAC and Rifle. Almost everyone will stick to the "old" ones.

The laser was perfect where it was, I wish we could keep it that way.

+1. Pro Nexuiz Laser.

Since this topic is raised again I cannot refrain from adding my two words, as usual :o)

As I mentioned several times before, laser jumping and, consequently, being in the air is one of the most fun parts of the game for me. This and pushing other people around with the laser or other weapons.

I am happy to see that some other people enjoy this as well. If there are enough of us nuclear jack-rabbits, then it would be worth re-thinking the current physics/gameplay development. I am not saying start over from scratch but leave the laser as a useful tool for vertical movement. And for pushing people around :o)

We also have quite some weapons that allow for effective combat with people who are in mid-air. Think about the nex (of course), the mg, the rifle, the electro (for medium distance air-fight) and the rocket launcher (for close distance air fight). In my opinion we should rather rely on the effectivity of the weapons in air-fight than on removing the air-fight altogether or mostly.

Of course, I am just another player coming from a distant Descent™ past, so my affinity to air-fight isn't altogether surprising. But other people enjoy this too! Can't we make air-fight more controllable by making weapons more effective in air-fight rather than removing this aspect?

chooky has only air fighting skills
chooky thought this game was 3d , not 2d
chooky suggests re looking at his interview , chooky not always gets away with it
aussie players have adapted to chookys stuff
chooks cant fly , so they need rocket to help them



:^

rip chooksta.

I'm fine with most of the changes that I'm seeing except the laser (yes, even the LG). I agree with Halogene here: the laser is critical to the game.

I don't even think the midair CTF gameplay is that much of a problem either. Try to fly on HOCTF and you will get nexed or lasered in an instant - people adapt, and they will continue to do so in the new game! The idea of having a push-only, no-damage weapon to combat the midair "problem" is a cool one, though. I just don't know how it would be implemented. Maybe something like a rifle that shoots a ball of compressed air, or something to put on the laser as a secondary?

It is my understanding (just hearing through the grapevine, I don't know if this is fact) that the laser reduction was brought about after an observation that most gameplay in CTF matches is done in the air. This was considered a problem because most of the weapons are not suited for air fighting.

So one should conclude that the problem is the weapons, not the laser itself.

I'm pro-Nexuiz laser too.
For me, laser jump is one of the few reasons I have played Nexuiz so far (and making fast combos is another one........). As compared, Warsow or QuakeLive gameplays are just desperately tasteless.

More generally (understand: regardless to my own humble opinion), this change seems to not be understood, nor enough explained.

Rage_ATWM +1
A difference to another games (especially QL and Warsow) is very important.
That could be done through the laser etc. (Ok, we have some things that are raelly different; but also we have some things that are similar to QL...)

I like the direction this thread is taking. Nice to see that there are so many people around that like the laser as a tool for vertical movement. Maybe hope is not lost

Wow, and I thought I was the only one suffering right now. I'm happy I'm not by myself.

And Rage_ATWM +1

chooky thought this game was 3d , not 2d

Lol!

We also have quite some weapons that allow for effective combat with people who are in mid-air. Think about the nex (of course), the mg, the rifle, the electro (for medium distance air-fight) and the rocket launcher (for close distance air fight).

Ok this I don't agree with. The nex is obviously the primary anti-air weapon. The second one is probably the shotgun. Third would be machinegun. Fourth would be crylink. Note that the last three are just hold-and-spray weapons. Fifth would be the rocket launcher, and only because of the rocket curving feature. Rocket curving has helped turn the RL into more of an air-fighting weapon.

When I'm talking about air-fighting, I mostly mean after they grab the flag and they are a handful of meters away. To me, the biggest issue with air fighting is speed. So we're mostly talking about speed-fighting. Most FC kills are probably done before they can get outside of the radius of a few meters. After they leave that radius, they are usually moving fast and they are in the air. If you don't have a nex, you just have to keep spraying them with the spray weapons and hope one of your teammates is ahead of them. Even if you have a teammate ahead of them, you hope they have a weapon that can stop the flag carrier.

Rocket curving made the RL more useful in air combat. You could shoot it into the air and curve it into the path of the flag carrier. But in Xonotic, the rockets now don't take on the speed of the player. Rockets have a static speed no matter who is launching it and how fast that player is going. That means you can't chase a flag carrier and hope to shoot a rocket ahead of them. The rocket will end up behind you. This removes the rocket from any ability to stop a fast player, unless you are ahead of them. This is an example of a feature I will likely turn off on my servers, if I have the option.

We also have quite some weapons that allow for effective combat with people who are in mid-air. Think about the nex (of course), the mg, the rifle, the electro (for medium distance air-fight) and the rocket launcher (for close distance air fight).

Ok this I don't agree with.

Well of course if the flag carrier is miles away then neither electro nor rocket launcher will help you. But the mg will, and the rifle will, too.

I am sorry to say but while I usually do, in this particular case I don't quite agree to your argumentation.

If you are worried about air-fights with opponents that are a handful of meters away, then I assume you mean even outside of the range of the electro (current Xonotic default setting, that death ray thingy). But if the opponent is that far away, I fail to see the significant difference whether the opponent is in the air or on the ground. With the current settings, the grenade launcher won't help you at all at those distances. Maybe you'd get a slightly better result with the hagar, though the splash damage isn't that big.

If you are saying that by reducing the push of the laser the flag carrier cannot get so far away that easily, well, that may be true. But as a chaser you wouldn't be able to get after him any better (since you can't use the laser for that too and therefore are slower as well).

I think it boils down to the laser being a problem solely for CTF and the flag carrier being to fast with it. Then we should search for a solution that is applying to this specific scenario (like slowing down the flag carrier specificly) rather than reducing the fun for all other game modes.



On a side note I think I could agree that the static speed of the rockets is a bad idea in this aspect, but I don't know what exactly could be the reason for making it static in the first place so I'd need to know that before judging.

Then we should search for a solution that is applying to this specific scenario (like slowing down the flag carrier specificly) rather than reducing the fun for all other game modes.

I was just about to suggest the exact same thing.

Then we should search for a solution that is applying to this specific scenario (like slowing down the flag carrier specificly) rather than reducing the fun for all other game modes.

Tryed the slowing down thing in Nexuiz and it sucked! Its hard enough to get away from all the snipers at the moment and if you're slower its even worse.

But I agree with Halogene in that point that is does not matter if an enemy is on the ground or in the air when hes far away. IMO its easier to hit someone who is in air then (hitscan weapons).

Well of course if the flag carrier is miles away then neither electro nor rocket launcher will help you. But the mg will, and the rifle will, too.

I was talking about speed fighting, not distance fighting.

If the flag carrier is speeding away, you could laser after them and achieve the same speed, just being a handful of yards behind them. But then what weapons can you use to stop the flag carrier while they are speeding around? If they are in the air, your options are even fewer.

The FC doesn't have to even switch away from the laser. They can just constantly laser laser laser laser. You, as the chaser, have to laser and then switch back to another weapon to attack. Because of that, it's difficult enough to even keep up speed with the FC. But if you can keep up, then what weapon do you attack with? If you don't have a nex, you're usually out of luck. Usually, it's the nex or shotgun. It would be likely outside of the lightning gun range (as I understand it). You'd be lucky to land a mortar or hagar. And in Xonotic, you can't use the rocket while chasing someone anymore because the rocket will end up behind you.

I don't see how an improvement for this very common CTF scenario would necessarily have a negative effect on other game modes. It might improve other game modes too. It depends on what the new weapon features are. People do fly around and speed around in other game modes.

IMHO the reason you spawned with the laser and shotgun in Nexuiz was because they served the basics of each of the fundamentals, meaning: movement (laser) and damage (shotgun). Other weapons improve on these aspects, like the hook (movement) or Nex (damage) or rocket launcher (both: rocketjump and guidable rockets).

If your laser is meant as a damage weapon, then why spawn with it and the shotgun? why not just one?

Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying we should delete the laser. I'm saying there's no point in spawning with two 'damage' weapons, and so the laser shouldn't be viewed/created as one.

IMHO the reason you spawned with the laser and shotgun in Nexuiz was because they served the basics of each of the fundamentals, meaning: movement (laser) and damage (shotgun). Other weapons improve on these aspects, like the hook (movement) or Nex (damage) or rocket launcher (both: rocketjump and guidable rockets).

If your laser is meant as a damage weapon, then why spawn with it and the shotgun? why not just one?

Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying we should delete the laser. I'm saying there's no point in spawning with two 'damage' weapons, and so the laser shouldn't be viewed/created as one.

Because the laser is more precise, even though it travels. I balanced it both as a (low-powered) weapon and movement tool in my settings.

The problem I have with the laser is that there is no thought to the decision of whether to laser jump or not to laser jump, especially when running away from someone. The reason is in just about every case, the pros (moving a lot faster) are significantly more than the cons (lose a tiny bit of health). Since all the weapons deal a lot of damage in this game, the loss of a tiny bit of health is almost meaningless if it lets you move instantly a lot faster than normal movement does. Yes, the almost free movement boost is a lot of fun, but it makes gameplay in all game modes heavily favor the aggressor.

I could see how people wouldn't consider this an issue, but I do (mostly because I'm definitely a defensively minded player) and I consider it the primary reason for why CTF is just not fun.

The simplest solutions are the best, so either reduce the power of a laser jump or increase the health it takes to do one. IMO, it'd be more fun and interesting to increase the cost of health.

As I mentioned several times before, laser jumping and, consequently, being in the air is one of the most fun parts of the game for me. This and pushing other people around with the laser or other weapons.

+1 for this. IMO this is really the main thing separating Nexuiz from every other FPS on the planet, and flying in Nexuiz is something I really enjoy. As a result, I'm against drastically decreasing the strength of the laser (from 2.52) and definitely opposed to increasing it's damage. Air to ground combat was very interesting in Nexuiz as the Nex (the most effective G->A weapon) could easily be defeated with a quick shot of the laser if the person with the Nex didn't have great aim and motion tracking.

And TBH I think a lot of the people saying "Oh, this ruins CTF!" should ask themselves if they actually enjoy CTF in the first place.

I respect people's opinions if they have a definite reason for not liking the laser, but those who don't play CTF often and hate the laser because it gives the opposition an advantage should probably contribute something more constructive than just "lol this sux, kill da laza" (again, there haven't really been many people in this thread doing that, but it is an annoying sentiment). I personally hate the Nex, but I know that it's one of those weapons we really have to have to balance gameplay. I could just say "Ok guise let's remove the Nex because it turns me into gibs", but that would ruin other's fun and the balance of the game.

Perhaps this needs to be put to a poll, because at the end of the day the final strength and balance of the laser will probably be the result of either:
- A majority decision
OR
- Two separate balances
The second eventuality is less desirable than the first, but if that's what it takes to let everyone enjoy Xonotic, than so be it

Flying? Good luck with that, the current settings also have CoD-like gravity as well as FALL DAMAGE in addition to a laser that is less useful than my pellet gun.

...in addition to a laser that is less useful than my pellet gun.

Oh I wouldn't say that, pellets don't recharge . But then again I don't think the current laser could blind you either.

Firstly. It's quite sad to see we don't even have a beta out yet and people are already saying there going to make changes on there server to do this or to do that, this is just really disappointing.

Also, you say the new laser is so hard, atleast now there is some actual thought of where you have to laserjump and timing. As Vbraun said, there is no thought of where you need to laserjump (this is in nexuiz) to generally get to somewhere. Xonotic maps are currently being made around the current settings mainly I believe, what I like about the new laser is that to get to a higher platform you need to perform a decent LJ with some degree of timing, there is less over-shooting then before as well, LJs vertically were never really easy to do the same height consistently.

If you want to get to higher places you need to perform multiple LJs now, which make's sense when you think about it, in nexuiz there is the problem that height gives you little advantage over an opponent. Maps are not the problem, what's the point putting a powerup or strong weapon somewhere high if your just able to get to it easily anyway for example.

It is not just a problem in CTF, in TDM/DM it was very easy in nexuiz just to laser up switch weapon, shoot, fall, laser up, switch weapon shoot, fall. It make's it really hard for height advantage to have any advantage, you know you may be controlling an area (more a competitive side), that you have just won from an opponent only for someone to come in and laserjump up and charge at you with the shotgun, it kind of neglects the whole aspect of getting a weapon and having to work to get somewhere.

I'd rather see the laser as it is, a lot of people say about 'we want the old laser', well old laser for me was much more like how it is now, it actually took some timing to do a correct laserjump most people here probably were not even around at 1.5 or older to know what it was like.

Although CTF has been mentioned the most, because this is where the problem is the greatest, it actually has an effect over multiple gametypes.

It's not a hard solution and it fixes a lot of problems e.g.

More skillful usage of LJs actually working out where you need to or can laserjump from to get upto X ledge, less aerial means that the other weapons can be used more effectively, a decrease in height means you have to do more jumps to get somewhere relatively high using more health which is a disadvantage,(or take a jumppad) where it is easier to shoot someone but they lose no health getting to a higher area, but is a harder route to take against someone defending it.

I remember suggesting for CTF how about the FC can't use the laser, so team-mates still can and would hopefully inspire more teamplay and make it a bit more interesting, but THIS IS NOT ALLOWED BECAUSE THEN I CAN'T LASERJUMP AWAY AND TRY AND CAP IN 6 SECONDS!!!! /rant.

Basically people seem to want to 'balance' other stuff around a problem that can be and has got a simple solution that is already in place. Just because the laser is unique to nexuiz/xonotic doesn't mean it is free from having any changes to it to improve gameplay, this is just dumb.