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Replacing spawn weapons

#51
(05-19-2012, 10:11 PM)W4RP1G Wrote: 1) What sort of weapon roles is this game missing?
2) What role does the shotgun serve as a weapon?
3) Will the game be broken if that role is removed?
4) Should the roles of 2 weapons actually be squeezed into 1 weapon?
5) How does cutting 1 of the starting weapons actually improve gameplay?

Actually, looking at my answers has helped me see that I don't want to lose the current shotgun primary fire. :/

Agreed. The shotgun is a unique weapon in the current loadout and so it's primary fire functionality needs to stay.

#1: Also can't think of any.
#2: Good finisher as you say, but also good at defending yourself from opponents that just ram into you (it IS powerful in close combat...)
#3: Yeah, it will lack a shotgun style weapon (Tongue)
#4: I think so, or possibly squeeze together melee and laser on a dedicated button, dump laser as a weapon and then keep the shotgun.
#5: Probably doesn't. Not sure.

@Samual: Please don't remove the melee. I'll do the coding for a dedicated button this summer if that's needed. (Take that as a warning Samual, *you* should know why :p)

(05-20-2012, 12:24 AM)Samual Wrote: Thirdly, yes trouting will be removed because there's no other way to do it. Get over it Tongue The game is fun in other ways anyway.

Lies.

(05-20-2012, 12:24 AM)Samual Wrote: ... you fucking morons, stay on topic! Tongue I'm not replying to these posts by kojn/fruitiex/W4RP1G. Make a summary of your ideas which are actually relevant and repost, otherwise I won't reply.
If you don't have time to read through what people think about weapon balance, then you probably shouldn't be doing this.

TL;DR: Spamming weapon combos is way too effective, please balance this out so that it is not mandatory to spam weapon combos in order to remain competitive.

This discussion is moved to another thread: http://forums.xonotic.org/showthread.php?tid=3034

EDIT: I stand corrected, it seems like you've already done something about this? Awesome!
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#52
Quote:@Samual: Please don't remove the melee. I'll do the coding for a dedicated button this summer if that's needed. (Take that as a warning Samual, *you* should know why )
How is this supposed to work? Being able to slap with all weapons? Might be stupid when slapping someone with the grenade launcher deals more damage than actually letting a grenade explode right into his face. Just saying Smile
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#53
Now I can imagine everyone slapping with nexgun! (or tuba)
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#54
Would be a hilarious mod tbh, but I don't think this will work for default gameplay without carefully re-balancing the damage output or switch time.
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#55
(05-20-2012, 05:09 AM)C.Brutail Wrote: So, you want to remove a funny, geeky feature, that tells Xonotic apart from the many other FPS games, and that some people including myself have already fond memories of.
Yes, don't remove trouting.

(05-20-2012, 05:09 AM)C.Brutail Wrote: The main problem lies in implementing the other two features into the same gun. Laserjumping should be on a different gun, because laserjumping allows you large freedom in movement. You can gain speed, height, maybe even dodge with it. If you'd place this feature along a "powerful" primary firemode, it'll be too easy. Like in Minstagib or OverKill, but in those gamemodes it is fine, those are based on hecticness anyway. The movement freedom coming from laserjumping MUST be penalised somehow, and it already is: you have to switch a gun for that. Though if with playtests this comes out to not to be a problem, I might be fine with it.
One can put in a delay after firing a weapon until you can laserjump, which will fix this.

Since laserjumping is such an often used feature in Xonotic, it should have a dedicated button EVEN if everyone does not have a 42-button mouse, I'll try and explain after the next quote:

(05-20-2012, 05:09 AM)C.Brutail Wrote: But again, what about the melee? I stated a lot of stuff about it already, and honestly, I can't accept FruitieX's standpoint, about mouses in general having more than 3 buttons+scrollwheel. NO THEY DON'T. For a casual gamer or computer user, no. And Xonotic has to be fun for them too, you can't tell in the system requirements "needs mouse with more than 3 buttons". You can say, bind it to the keyboard then, but this can be frustrating and a no go for a lot of people (like me too, even though I have a mouse with 5 buttons, but I still haven't lost empathy to others...)
If we'd go ahead and remove the laser as a weapon and put it's often used laserjumping functionality behind a dedicated button, then we'd at least free up the "1" key (or whatever they have bound to laser, must be close to WASD anyway). You can still press 1 while holding W, although it's a bit awkward, but then maybe that player will prioritize the laser and swap its key with what they have on either E or Q and accept that they have to get used to this change. (muscle memory!)

Right now, personally, for me (only? Tongue) it sounds like a brilliant idea to put Xonotic's main movement trick behind a dedicated button, which could double as a dedicated melee/trouting button as well. (no matter which weapon you are holding!)

Here's my suggestion for how it could work:

1. Remove the laser weapon entirely.
2. Put the juggling functionality on the shotgun secondary (it could work precisely as the laser primary does now, and if needed, could also be swapped to primary by player's choice)
3. Implement the dedicated button like this:
- When you hit the button, there would be code that checks if you are currently aiming at a wall that's near enough to you for laser splash damage to affect you.
....- If true, fire a special laser projectile that can only damage you, and will go through other players (just in case), and expires when it can no longer hit you.
....- If false, there will be trouting action!

Notes:
- Wall proximity code should also account for your current velocity, so if you *would* be within range when the laser projectile explodes, this code will return true
- For the sake of simplicity I think we can assume that no player will, during normal conditions, travel faster than the laser projectile Tongue
- Before you could melee/laserjump using the dedicated button, there would be code checking if you've fired a weapon in the last x seconds, same delay for every weapon IMO (possibly around 0.4 seconds, that should be about the same as it is currently: weapon animtime + duration of switch animation). Also obviously, after hitting this button there will be a delay until you can fire again (either after the trouting animation is done, or say 0.4s after firing the special laser projectile)

What could possibly go wrong? :-)
(Oh yes, Samual disagreeing with me, because this is how our universe works.)

(05-20-2012, 07:03 AM)asy7um Wrote: Would be a hilarious mod tbh, but I don't think this will work for default gameplay without carefully re-balancing the damage output or switch time.

With an artificial delay after firing your weapon (that can be equal to how long it takes to switch to the shotgun now), there should not be any balancing issues at all. (as suggested earlier in this post)

(05-20-2012, 06:28 AM)asy7um Wrote:
Quote:@Samual: Please don't remove the melee. I'll do the coding for a dedicated button this summer if that's needed. (Take that as a warning Samual, *you* should know why )
How is this supposed to work? Being able to slap with all weapons? Might be stupid when slapping someone with the grenade launcher deals more damage than actually letting a grenade explode right into his face. Just saying Smile

Again not an issue with an artificial delay. With correct values, the damage output would be identical to what it is currently, that is switching to the shotgun first, then trouting.
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#56
i generally like the dirrection of all of this Samual.

When it comes to laserjumping being on primary or secondary fire mentioned by some of posters earlier, i think it's not that big deal, in minsta it's on secondary and people seem to accomodate quite easily when changing from regular gameplay to minsta.

What is more, moving laserjumping to secondary would bring more consistency, as it will be on secondary both in regular gameplay and minsta.
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#57
Quote:Again not an issue with an artificial delay. With correct values, the damage output would be identical to what it is currently, that is switching to the shotgun first, then trouting.
Sorry but I don't see how an artificial delay would be any more logical to players than the current situation (only the sg can be used to slap). Rather it will probably create lots of WHY U NO SLAP FFS rage situations Tongue
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#58
(05-20-2012, 07:41 AM)asy7um Wrote:
Quote:Again not an issue with an artificial delay. With correct values, the damage output would be identical to what it is currently, that is switching to the shotgun first, then trouting.
Sorry but I don't see how an artificial delay would be any more logical to players than the current situation (only the sg can be used to slap). Rather it will probably create lots of WHY U NO SLAP FFS rage situations Tongue

Yep, we have to tweak it to avoid such situations. Needs playtesting. It's also something you'll get used to over time...
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#59
You would have to add some kind of animation that explains the delay, otherwise I don't think it would feel "right" to wait till the attack starts. And what about multiple slap attacks? Those will become a lot slower which will affect balance. I'm still undecided about that idea btw, just trying to imagine how it could work ingame.
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#60
(05-20-2012, 03:47 AM)asy7um Wrote: How exactly would this make Xonotic more Quake-like? Recently it seems hip to hate on all proposals because they would turn Xonotic into a quake clone. How about you (you as in: everyone who does this) actually play quake and then make up your own opinion instead of pulling out phrases without any factual foundation?

I wasn't saying it makes it more quake-like. I just meant to indicate that my opinion about Xonotic gameplay may be ignorant but certainly not influenced by stuff I like from other games since I never actually played any other FPS than Nexuiz/Xonotic to a significant extent. Sorry if my post was ambiguous.
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#61
(05-20-2012, 07:10 AM)FruitieX Wrote: One can put in a delay after firing a weapon until you can laserjump, which will fix this.

And how'd you make this delay obvious to anybody? I mean, how'd you know you can laserjump now? Also, how'd you describe this to a total newbie? How would even this introduce more SIMPLICITY to the game (because we're striving towards that, don't we)?

(05-20-2012, 07:10 AM)FruitieX Wrote: Since laserjumping is such an often used feature in Xonotic, it should have a dedicated button EVEN if everyone does not have a 42-button mouse, I'll try and explain after the next quote:

If we'd go ahead and remove the laser as a weapon and put it's often used laserjumping functionality behind a dedicated button, then we'd at least free up the "1" key (or whatever they have bound to laser, must be close to WASD anyway).

[Image: 3576-objection.jpg]
I don't use the 1-9 buttons for weapon switching, also, I don't even use WASD, but ESDF, because my thumb is small (reaching space for jump Big Grin ). Also, I've heard of some gamers already whine about the movement system is too simple, with too shallow learning curve. This'll give an even more simple, watered down laserjumping. Magic button weeeee, I'm zapping all over the place! Also, it was once tried in Nexuiz, can't remember the version, it was voted down.


(05-20-2012, 07:10 AM)FruitieX Wrote: Here's my suggestion for how it could work:

1. Remove the laser weapon entirely.
2. Put the juggling functionality on the shotgun secondary (it could work precisely as the laser primary does now, and if needed, could also be swapped to primary by player's choice)
3. Implement the dedicated button like this:
- When you hit the button, there would be code that checks if you are currently aiming at a wall that's near enough to you for laser splash damage to affect you.
....- If true, fire a special laser projectile that can only damage you, and will go through other players (just in case), and expires when it can no longer hit you.
....- If false, there will be trouting action!

Notes:
- Wall proximity code should also account for your current velocity, so if you *would* be within range when the laser projectile explodes, this code will return true
- For the sake of simplicity I think we can assume that no player will, during normal conditions, travel faster than the laser projectile Tongue
- Before you could melee/laserjump using the dedicated button, there would be code checking if you've fired a weapon in the last x seconds, same delay for every weapon IMO (possibly around 0.4 seconds, that should be about the same as it is currently: weapon animtime + duration of switch animation). Also obviously, after hitting this button there will be a delay until you can fire again (either after the trouting animation is done, or say 0.4s after firing the special laser projectile)

What could possibly go wrong? :-)
(Oh yes, Samual disagreeing with me, because this is how our universe works.)

My sarcasm detector just exploded. Tongue
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#62
How am I supposed to read and reply to all of this? Sad
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#63
I don't like this talk of a dedicated laser jump button. The movement system works wonderfully now, why change it? Serious deviation from the current formula makes not sense if the formula works well, which it does.

I'm also against keeping trouting just because it's an inside joke amongst nerds. If trouting can be kept without compromising gameplay, then that's great. But if there is a better design ready for implementation, then by all means, get rid of the inside joke. If people feel so strongly about keeping trouting, then someone make a "trout arena" or something where all the players spawn with a melee weapon fish in their hand.
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#64
This indeed ^
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#65
(05-20-2012, 12:16 PM)W4RP1G Wrote: I'm also against keeping trouting just because it's an inside joke amongst nerds. If trouting can be kept without compromising gameplay, then that's great. But if there is a better design ready for implementation, then by all means, get rid of the inside joke. If people feel so strongly about keeping trouting, then someone make a "trout arena" or something where all the players spawn with a melee weapon fish in their hand.

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#66
How is a melee attack an inside joke? IDGI.
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#67
Edit: Oh, nvm.
I want to post a meme picture as well!

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#68
Here's some pro/con analysis of the more popular ideas. REMEMBER: the 'value' of a pro or con is not necessarily equal to another. Think of them more like notes or points.

• Current system: Shotgun and laser separate spawn weapons; melee on shotgun secondary; previous weapon on laser secondary.
+ Functions adequately among experienced players
- Confusing to new players: two spawn weapons; being able to switch to shotgun while out of ammo

• Samual's concept: Shotgun primary retains functionality. Clicking secondary is identical to current laser primary; holding and releasing delivers melee blast.
+ One spawn weapon
- Confusing to new players due to multiple uses of secondary

• Offhand laser: Shotgun functionality remains the same, laser is removed and an offhand weapon-independant laser is added.
+ One spawn weapon
- Balancing issues with comboing OR confusing to new players due to delay
- Requires a bind and/or three button mouse

• Possible system 1: Current laser primary moved to shotgun secondary, melee is applied to all weapons.
+ One spawn weapon
- Melee on all weapons could provide balance issues/technical issues with animations

• Possible system 2: Current laser primary moved to shotgun secondary, melee is removed.
+ One spawn weapon
+ Easy to understand for new players
- Removes weapon functionality

• Possible system 3: Current laser primary moved to shotgun secondary, melee gets it's own weapon.
+ CuBe0wL and Samual can compromise on this Tongue
- Two spawn weapons
- Yet have to come up with a good secondary melee function

• RANDOM IDEA: Primary fires both current shotgun (possibly with increased spread and/or lower damage) and current laser primary, secondary retains melee.
+ One spawn weapon
- WhªT `tH˜e ƒ*©k?

A little note on "making things simpler/easier for the new player": At some point, we have to accept that when you do something new you aren't going to be an expert at it. I'm very hesitant to remove functionality for the sake of the newbie. I mean come on, they're so fun to pwn!

To clarify on Samual's idea: It doesn't remove weapon functionality. Shotgun primary gets new visual effects, laser function remains identical, and hold and release for a melee effect (with new visuals as well)
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#69
I'm wondering why people think having to 2 starting weapons is so confusing. I guess it might be confusing to a newbie, but then any form of laser jumping would be as well. We need a tutorial like Nexuiz has to explain the basics.

Having 2 starting weapons has been the norm for a while, only it's usually a melee weapons and a weak gun. It seems like if we want to go with what's easiest for a newbie to figure out, the most logical idea is to add a dedicated melee weapon and move the laser primary to the shotgun secondary.

(05-20-2012, 12:43 PM)Mr. Bougo Wrote: How is a melee attack an inside joke? IDGI.

I was just going off of C Brutal's post further back.
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#70
Thx for the summing up. I have to edit it though, to be politically correct on my version Wink

• Possible system 3: Current laser primary moved to shotgun secondary, melee gets it's own weapon.
+ CuBe0wL and Samual can compromise on this Tongue
- Two spawn weapons
-Yet have to come up with a good secondary melee function
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#71
(05-20-2012, 01:11 PM)C.Brutail Wrote: -Yet have to come up with a good secondary melee function

New thread!!
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#72
I think the guy on the right side of C.Brutail's illustration seems to enjoy the piece of fun he ordered more.

There should be a third version where the customer gets a nice piece of fun upon order, but during his meal the piece of fun gets replaced against his will and despite heavy protest by new, but entirely different pieces of fun that he never ordered, and this several times. Probably replacement was triggered by him or a neighbour complaining about a dirty fork.
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#73
No matter if you try to enforce changes or try to prevent them, in both cases you act against someones will.
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#74
Offhand laser seems like a great idea *runs off and hides*

P.S: Secondary for melee weapon could be a shild of some sorts, or a for teamplay a link functionality to boost weapons of a teammate, or it could be a mine laying functionality.
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#75
(05-20-2012, 03:24 PM)poVoq Wrote: Offhand laser seems like a great idea *runs off and hides*

P.S: Secondary for melee weapon could be a shild of some sorts, or a for teamplay a link functionality to boost weapons of a teammate, or it could be a mine laying functionality.

Or the melee alt could simply be a charge up melee attack that deals more damage. There are lots of option, but it might be a thread hijack to get into that here.
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