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Replacing spawn weapons

#26
(05-19-2012, 06:28 PM)kojn^ Wrote: Not a fan of the fast weapon-switching at all purely because it's too fast and making everything too spammy, fast weapon switching is fine when not firing ofcourse.

Although a bit off-topic, I completely agree with this.

Xonotic is a bit on the spammy side still with the very fast weapon combos. In my opinion, there should be a longer delay after firing a weapon until you can switch to another one (not so much that weapon combos become entirely useless, just enough to remove the constant fire / switch / fire / switch / fire / switch spam you often see). Note that I also don't want to put in a delay between merely switching weapons! Only a slight one that activates after firing your weapon and then immediately trying to switch away to another one.

Now, bringing it a bit more on-topic:
Maybe this wouldn't be as bad combined with the idea I had in my previous post, because you would then still be able to laserjump (and melee) as fast as (if not even faster than) before, after firing a weapon.

The ability to spam weapon combos has always been something that annoyed me about Nexuiz and Xonotic, if you want to streamline the gameplay I think it's also important that you focus on this issue. Hopefully me and kojn aren't the only ones thinking like this. Smile
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#27
(05-19-2012, 06:59 PM)FruitieX Wrote:
(05-19-2012, 06:28 PM)kojn^ Wrote: Not a fan of the fast weapon-switching at all purely because it's too fast and making everything too spammy, fast weapon switching is fine when not firing ofcourse.

Although a bit off-topic, I completely agree with this.

Xonotic is a bit on the spammy side still with the very fast weapon combos. In my opinion, there should be a longer delay after firing a weapon until you can switch to another one (not so much that weapon combos become entirely useless, just enough to remove the constant fire / switch / fire / switch / fire / switch spam you often see). Note that I also don't want to put in a delay between merely switching weapons! Only a slight one that activates after firing your weapon and then immediately trying to switch away to another one.

Now, bringing it a bit more on-topic:
Maybe this wouldn't be as bad combined with the idea I had in my previous post, because you would then still be able to laserjump (and melee) as fast as (if not even faster than) before, after firing a weapon.

The ability to spam weapon combos has always been something that annoyed me about Nexuiz and Xonotic, if you want to streamline the gameplay I think it's also important that you focus on this issue. Hopefully me and kojn aren't the only ones thinking like this. Smile
I like weapon combos, but I'd be ok with them being toned down just a bit if that's possible, I just don't want to lose them. After playing Xonotic and getting used to weapon combos, I feel restricted in games like Warsow and QL because there is such a delay when switching.

From what I gather, you guys would like to reduce spam while keeping the weapon combos. Idk if that's really possible though, the mortar is a pretty spammy weapon even without combos.

This is how I see it. Really close quarter battles are curently extremely fast paced because of the weapon switching. The Arc Cannon might change things so that close quarter battles immediately go to the LG(like in QL) rather than weapon combos. So, is weapon combo spam at a distance really an issue? The Nex seems to decide how medium-long range battles will go more than anything, so would reducing mortar and rocket spam do anything but make the Nex even more useful?

Oddly, this discussion is calling weapon combos too spammy, but they don't even compare to the amount of spam you see from the crylink, hagar, and electro.
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#28
(05-19-2012, 07:20 PM)W4RP1G Wrote: Oddly, this discussion is calling weapon combos too spammy, but they don't even compare to the amount of spam you see from the crylink, hagar, and electro.

Yes, those weapons are classed as spam weapons. But when you combine them in quick succession, it becomes a big(ger) mess, that's part of the issue FruitieX is explaining, he is not saying weapons are too spammy individually (because in Xonotic there really not any worse then any other FPS i've played at all, and most FPS have a 'spam' weapon/s).

And if you think about it, if weapon combos were slower slightly, the nex would not be as strong, because you would not be able to go back and forth so quick, as it is the most used weapon in these 'combos'.

And whilst the LG would not be used in combo's it still suffers the same problem as the MG. Damage output potential is higher with combo's then it is with using the mg for example, way higher, unless you have a incredible aim and movement with it (I actually do have a very good aim with it and movement at times, but I'm one of the few exceptions and even I struggle with it vs combos).

Last time I played L0, he was commenting the same problem I see, can't do enough damage enough of the time because damage output via combo's is quicker & higher then you can output with a weapon such as the MG..and the MG is not weak, it's DPS is in comparison with the other weapons when used well, so this clearly is not an issue with weapon damage.

UT2003 had fast weapon switching but it did not have fast weapon switching style like Xonotic when you can switch so quickly after each shot fired, and so whilst fast weapon switching was there, it didn't have anywhere near the same issues that Xonotic does in this area.

Hope that clears your Question up. FruitieX is simply suggesting that gameplay would be improved if they are slowed down somewhat when firing.

If anything, it would help people appreciate the other more under-used weapons more this way, atleast they get a chance to compete. A Toned down DPS via combos will mean the weapon set turns into a more balanced set.

btw, just wanted to post that mainly to you W4RPIG, this can (and should) be bought to attention a little down the line, but everyone should concentrate now on Samual's first post suggestions.
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#29
@kojn^

don't derail this thread pls. You already made these points in other thread. This one is about laser, not necessary another balance tome.

edit:
ok kojn^ so lets go back to the laser, and not to a discussion that just a month ago went here at length and had its impact in balance.
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#30
If you actually read the bottom line of my post _Subzero_... I wanted to clear that up now so the thread wouldn't get de-railed any further.
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#31
I'm mostly in favor of the idea suggested by Samual, but the problem is that we're throwing too many functions for one weapon (that is combining laser, shotgun and melee into one weapon) which will make balancing the weapon harder and i thought we were trying to make it simple, and since many want the juggling aspect of the laser plus the laser being the primary instead of secondary and also many are fond of shotgun as a finishing weapon I have a suggestion to make:

I say why rock the boat, lets combine laser and shotgun into one weapon (new model perhaps) with primary being laser and secondary being a burst of shotgun (I heard in nexuiz days when someone respawned many were using laser+triple shotgun burst combo when pressing the secondary laser key, so this is ur nexuiz reference Big Grin )
Then we are left with melee attack, i agree as some have already mentioned that a melee for every weapon is ideal in this situation and many cod bf games have this function (perhaps use the vacated bind for the shotgun as a melee attack for every weapon).
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#32
Ok thanks kojn, I get what you're saying. I agree now, though I would like to have this discussion in another thread if there is one active somewhere.

Soooo....Back to the laser/shotgun discussion. I think everyone should be asking, a few questions like:

1) What sort of weapon roles is this game missing?
2) What role does the shotgun serve as a weapon?
3) Will the game be broken if that role is removed?
4) Should the roles of 2 weapons actually be squeezed into 1 weapon?
5) How does cutting 1 of the starting weapons actually improve gameplay?

#1 none that i can think of

for #2 and #3, the shotgun is a hitscan weapon with good spread and dps. It nothing special as a starting weapon, but as a finisher, it's wonderful. Would the new laser fill that role, or would we be losing 1 finisher weapon all together? Also, the shotgun is a good weapon for people with poor ping as well. Personally I think you could remove the melee all together and I would not care.

#4 absolutely, if the 2 weapons aren't fully useful, and it can be done gracefully. Of the current lineup, the laser alt-fire, crylink alt-fire, and MG alt-fire are pretty useless. Just sayin.

#5 I would like to hear about because Quake and UT both have 2 starting weapons and I've never heard anyone complain, except maybe that the AR in UT2K4 was too weak.

Actually, looking at my answers has helped me see that I don't want to lose the current shotgun primary fire. :/
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#33
I FUCKING PREDICTED THE 10+ POSTS... I PREDICTED IT... TAKE THAT MR BOUGO!!!!! Big Grin

anyway, i'll try and get to responding to these now... holy shit this'll be a long night.
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#34
Let me get some quick points out of the way first, then I will continue with direct responses.

#1: I said stay on the topic of the laser and shotgun. I will not reply any further than this post to other questions which are not relevant (i.e. regarding lightning gun/the other weapons, or the other mutator) as that is off topic and I don't have time for that.

#2: I already know how to handle older maps, it will be VERY simple to run old maps with the new weapons and it won't break any gameplay factors on the maps... It'll work similar to how Q3 maps work in Xonotic/Nexuiz, we re-direct the quake spawn functions to equivalent Xonotic based spawn functions so that the items still work accordingly. I can do this exactly the same way with legacy map entities, so that no map will be harmed by this in any significant way.

#3: The attack as primary and the jumping as secondary is negotiable, it could just as easily be reversed -- I can also even make a client side option for it to be reversed, so any client can choose what they want. I just thought that "attack" would be most logical to a new player on primary. of course other people would rather stick to their habit of using primary to jump with, which is fine. To clarify though, keep refering to primary and secondary like I have stated in the original post.. this will avoid confusion.

#4: It is possible to still have juggling-- I may have a way where this still works and I'll still be able to fit melee into it... but it's difficult to describe, i'll have to code it and show it to you guys.

#5: I intend to still use the laser model, and I believe I can make both of the functionality and effects fit the model just fine. It will still be an energy weapon of the same sort, and the effects will still fit the style of the gun.



With that said... lets continue to the other points:

Mr.Bougo Wrote:Do we really need this, or is this just change for the sake of change? It seems like the kind of thing you'd have to discuss extensively with the team before even presenting it to the playerbase...

Also, what about ammo and health consumption of weapon-based movement currently provided by the laser? Currently it seems alright, with infinite ammo and relatively low damage. Does your replacement provide that?
Yes, I think we need such a change.. there are a few logical flaws with the current design which I think should be addressed (due to input I have recieved and simply because it makes sense) and I think this is the best possible way to fulfil all the requirements while still being acceptable for the majority of players. If you must know all of these specific reasons, ask again -- i'd rather not have to type all of that out and such when I have so many points to reply to. Additionally, I have discussed such ideas for quite a while.. although apparently not enough according to some... Regarding the ammo and health consumption, this will be basically exactly the same. It will be infinite ammo, and low self damage-- just like current laser.

W4RP1G Wrote:My idea would be to remove the shotgun, keep the laser primary as is, and make the secondary a high damage melee-ish attack. The only issue with that, and your idea Samual, is that the shotgun is an awesome finisher weapon as it is now. If you remove it, the only other finisher will be the LG(or MG if it stays), which is gonna urk some people that are used to finishing with the shotty.
The new spawn weapon attack will behave EXACTLY like shotgun primary, but with a new effect. Essentially, it will still work as a defense weapon and a finisher, and the secondary will still function as the melee and jumping method like the laser.


@ C.Brutail... Damnit man, you got so much stuff wrong in this post.. i'm a bit disappointed haha. Well, let me try and clarify things for you.

Firstly, as I had stated above, I will not break any existing maps. Additionally, this isn't even a massive change.... And it has been on my drawing board since before Xonotic was even created. All of these ideas were on my drawing board ages ago, i'm just finally getting around to them. It is not too late, and they're not very major changes. Besides, this is fucking off topic anyway Tongue

Secondly, I will surely not harm laser jumping in any way... otherwise I would never even consider the idea. The charging was for melee, not jumping.. thus there would be no delay. I don't even like the idea of charging anyway precisely, i'll just have to figure out some way to handle the melee and jumping at the same time. Either way, most of your points here are based on a misunderstanding.. and I assure you i'll only do this if I find some way to logically handle the jumping in a good and acceptable way to the majority of players.

Thirdly, yes trouting will be removed because there's no other way to do it. Get over it Tongue The game is fun in other ways anyway.


@ Chryyz... I do believe i've covered everything you mentioned above already. Ask again/restate your points if i'm wrong.

@ FruitieX... I actually suggested melee on all weapons quite a while ago... unfortunately, there are quite a lot of problems with this.. in the end I have determined it is neither feasible from a developer standpoint or from a balancing standpoint, and this is the next best option unfortunately.

@ Subzero... I also covered most of your points above, however addressing the mutators quickly: Yes, old behavior/models/code will still exist and be accessible with mutators.

@ srkdy... point taken: again, see above, I do believe I can still have the long range juggling possibly.

@ Antibody... again I covered all of your points and I agree with you entirely.



... you fucking morons, stay on topic! Tongue I'm not replying to these posts by kojn/fruitiex/W4RP1G. Make a summary of your ideas which are actually relevant and repost, otherwise I won't reply.



@ Osiris... I actually believe I can balance it quite well.. we'll see, I believe I can come up with something simple enough and easy enough to use.

@ W4RP1G... I quite like this post, good layout/points. #1: I agree, none. #2/#3: I answered this above, but simply: I am keeping all of the roles of these weapons intact. #4: indeed. #5: I have certainly seen complaints about the two weapons being odd and confusing to players, especially since our spawn weapons are a bit more odd than the weapons you referenced. Additionally, another big motivation for this is to remove shell ammo (shotgun ammo) in a logical way, as it is simply pointless and I want to clean up the ammo system.
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#35
Quote:#3: The attack as primary and the jumping as secondary is negotiable, it could just as easily be reversed -- I can also even make a client side option for it to be reversed, so any client can choose what they want. I just thought that "attack" would be most logical to a new player on primary. of course other people would rather stick to their habit of using primary to jump with, which is fine. To clarify though, keep refering to primary and secondary like I have stated in the original post.. this will avoid confusion.

#4: It is possible to still have juggling-- I may have a way where this still works and I'll still be able to fit melee into it... but it's difficult to describe, i'll have to code it and show it to you guys.

Thanks for clearing this up. The other things like lg and splitting up cell ammo deserve their own thread though (in near/far future).
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#36
One thing I like to mention: I often find myself comboing laser and shotgun simply because I don't manage to get a weapon (especially in ffa dm). It should be possible to deal a reasonable amount of damage with the spawn weapons.

If enemy juggling is reserved to pickup weapons, I am against it (sorry).

Also I like weapon comboing very much, fast weapon combos are things I definitely miss from games like Warsow for example. I really would HATE it if the weapon switch refore delay would make comboing impossible or hard.

As much as some experienced players like or approve your suggestions, I honestly don't see a point for making such fundamental changes just when we built up a player base that got accustomed to the balance. It works well imho. Maybe I'm just ignorant because I've never played Quake, but that's probably also why I don't aim at making it more Quake-like.
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#37
(05-20-2012, 03:35 AM)Halogene Wrote: As much as some experienced players like or approve your suggestions, I honestly don't see a point for making such fundamental changes just when we built up a player base that got accustomed to the balance. It works well imho. Maybe I'm just ignorant because I've never played Quake, but that's probably also why I don't aim at making it more Quake-like.

Whether you've played other games or not is irrelevant. You've played Xonotic a lot, and that's all that counts IMHO.

I agree that such big changes come a bit late in development. If it were this important, why wasn't this brought up before the first release? Samual, you should focus on why we need things to change before asking what can be changed.
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#38
How exactly would this make Xonotic more Quake-like? Recently it seems hip to hate on all proposals because they would turn Xonotic into a quake clone. How about you (you as in: everyone who does this) actually play quake and then make up your own opinion instead of pulling out phrases without any factual foundation?
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#39
I do see why some changes have to be made. The ammo system is just really weird, 2 types of ammo are used A LOT, and 2 others barely.

But I agree with Halogene I would HATE to see weapon switching even more slowed down. Do that in XPM if necesarry, but NOT in normal gameplay.
And also the LG shouldn't be as strong as weapon combos, even if you have a very good aim, it should just be a finishing weapon.
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#40
I don't really like the idea of merging the two. The shotgun works fine as a starting weapon, and when used correctly can get a few kills. I find myself running around a lot with just shotgun/laser during CTF, it might not be optimal, but it works sometimes. I actually only get reminded that it's not that optimal when I run out of sg ammo, and am forced to look for other weapons. I fear that with a combined weapon this need may disappear since in order to have infinitive laser jumps it would probably have infinitive ammo. (Also, I'm one of those who relies a lot on the laser secondary.)

It's also more difficult for new players. Lets compare:
SG + Laser:
The function and limitations of a shotgun is very recognizable from nearly any other shooter experience of the new player, and the function of the secondary is easy to figure out trough the animation. The laser is less self-explanatory, but when someone figures out the primary is a splash projectile they will quickly grasp how they could use it. The secondary might come off as a bit random, but it is a great shortcut for people who just figured out how to laser jump and those who don't like to custom bind everything.
The first impression of the weapons of the game will be the shotgun, something familiar to fall back on while figuring out the other weapons. In some cases players don't find the laser, but this also means it's "complexity" will be of later concern.

New "SGLaser":
Random futuristic laser/pulse/discolight weapon, which shoots... stuff... And the secondary does random... stuf... (if you don't figure out there is click charge time.) It might kill players, or hurt and push yourself...
Sounds like a great, logical and coherent starting weapon, I'l randomly smash buttons and hopes something happens, or untill I get a more comprehensible weapon. Big Grin

(Ok, maaaaybe a slight exaggeration. But I still think it brings forth a valid point that most here overlook.)
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#41
why bringing up a balance discussion again? 2 years ago probably was a better point as there was no release. but why now?

why dont you make it as a mod? so every server admin can decide if he wants to use it or not
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#42
Quote:The new spawn weapon attack will behave EXACTLY like shotgun primary, but with a new effect. Essentially, it will still work as a defense weapon and a finisher, and the secondary will still function as the melee and jumping method like the laser.

Hmmmm, Impact hammer-like secondary?
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#43
WARNING: HUGE WALL OF TEXT COMING FROM ME AGAIN. You asked for feedback, you got it.
Samual, you'd be a very good politician, because I countered your ideas with detailed descriptions of problems, yet you:

-reply in a brief, mish-mashy way, without actual reasoning, proofs, ideas (not just for me, for MrBougo too)
-in the end, when I say, removing the trouting would hard the fun factor for (imho) many of us, you simply reply with:

"Thirdly, yes trouting will be removed because there's no other way to do it. Get over it Tongue"

I fucking don't like it this way. You seemingly asked for feedback, but in the end, it seems you don't really want to hear nor consider any of them. You just say "trust me, I thought this well out, I'm good at this". You don't seem to contemplate all the reasons people brought up here, and in the end only one will remains: yours. Like a good politician.

But let me reply in the democratic way (haha) again:

The idea of configuring how the primary or secondary WOULD be good, if it won't bring any more confusion to the configuration of the game. For me, it woulnd't be, but remember how people were raging all around, that there are just too many options to change or choose from in the menu? You just made things simplier, and now you'd like to add even more? Before you counter it, that if it won't be in the menu, than it'd be configurable with a cvar... well, good luck putting that in the mainstream mind, nobody would know about it, and hence nobody would use it. Also, changing primary to secondary is already doable right now too, with aliases.

Charging for melee:
"I don't even like the idea of charging anyway precisely, i'll just have to figure out some way to handle the melee and jumping at the same time."

Oh, I thought you've had all cleared in your mind before you started this. Tongue But ok, back on topic, and no more mockery.

I raised my concerns in my points:
2/laserjumping charged: you said laserjuming ability won't be charged. That was a misunderstanding from me, fine. I'm good on that one. LASERJUMPING WON'T BE CHARGED, right?
2/charging melee: I quote you: "I don't even like the idea of charging anyway precisely". We're good on this again, moving on...
3/fast backswitching. Ok, fine, I can forfeit on this. It really doesn't do anything on the laser secondary, the switching back on current laser secondary is truly a lack of imagination from the dev team. Also, like Antibody said, it's only "muscle memory" on that. One can switch back anytime with proper weapon binds.
4/trouting...
So, you want to remove a funny, geeky feature, that tells Xonotic apart from the many other FPS games, and that some people including myself have already fond memories of.
Let me tell you the reasons why I like trouting, while I think it should stay, and why I'd hate it being gone away:
Xonotic, while tries to be mainstream too, was developed mainly by geeks for geeks. For those who still don't know, trouting or shotgun slapping is a reference to mIRC, an IRC client, where the

Code:
/slap xy

command will tell "me slapped xy with a large trout" or something similar. I know you Samual know this, and many others too on the forum here. Still, this is called an "insider joke", and when 0.6 was released, I talked a lot with new players on the servers. When I asked them about the fish, they were either clueless, but still curious, or the others, who got the reference, and said it was hilarious, and liked it very much.
Fish are generally funny, don't remove the fish.
By removing trouting, you'll remove double trouting too. And that's funny again as hell, I remember I truly started laughing out loud when I first saw it.
By removing the trouting, you'll remove a key element from the game now many for us, and a good memory too: the First, Melee tournament. It might be only me who's too sentimental on this issue, but it's still a good thing to remember, and another thing that ties me to this community, and I'd hate you if you'd cut this wire.

You want to literally squeeze 3 different functions into only ONE gun. This is just freaking too much, face it, with your words, get over it.
You can merge shotgun primary into laser. You can remove ammo for it, especially if it gets a new effect. This is fine.
The main problem lies in implementing the other two features into the same gun. Laserjumping should be on a different gun, because laserjumping allows you large freedom in movement. You can gain speed, height, maybe even dodge with it. If you'd place this feature along a "powerful" primary firemode, it'll be too easy. Like in Minstagib or OverKill, but in those gamemodes it is fine, those are based on hecticness anyway. The movement freedom coming from laserjumping MUST be penalised somehow, and it already is: you have to switch a gun for that. Though if with playtests this comes out to not to be a problem, I might be fine with it.
But again, what about the melee? I stated a lot of stuff about it already, and honestly, I can't accept FruitieX's standpoint, about mouses in general having more than 3 buttons+scrollwheel. NO THEY DON'T. For a casual gamer or computer user, no. And Xonotic has to be fun for them too, you can't tell in the system requirements "needs mouse with more than 3 buttons". You can say, bind it to the keyboard then, but this can be frustrating and a no go for a lot of people (like me too, even though I have a mouse with 5 buttons, but I still haven't lost empathy to others...)
You're also totally wrong on the issue "I can use the same laser model". Just look at the barrel of that gun, it's a small stuff, how the hell do you think a gun with a tight barrel like this would spit out particles in a wide way, like shotgun pellets? It doesn't make any sence.

Like I said above, I can't see any problems with the current spawn weapons. Maybe the laser could have a better, good secondary firemode.
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#44
Quote:I don't really like the idea of merging the two. The shotgun works fine as a starting weapon, and when used correctly can get a few kills. I find myself running around a lot with just shotgun/laser during CTF, it might not be optimal, but it works sometimes. I actually only get reminded that it's not that optimal when I run out of sg ammo, and am forced to look for other weapons.

IMO that's the main issue with current starting weapons. While able to score a few kills and having legitimate uses, you should be pretty quick to find more powerful weapons. If starting weapons are so strong that you can get by just fine not bothering to find another ones, there is a problem.
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#45
He said in CTF, and sometimes. The shotgun most of the times works as a finishing weapon, and in CTF it happens a lot that you find someone who's allready beaten down to low health. There, the shotgun is a finishing weapon again, it's just not you who did the damage before. Good luck killing somebody fully stacked with only the shotgun.
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#46
Edit: Made a new thread here about weapon combo spam issues: http://forums.xonotic.org/showthread.php?tid=3034

Moved this post to the very bottom of the OP there.
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#47
(05-20-2012, 12:24 AM)Samual Wrote: The new spawn weapon attack will behave EXACTLY like shotgun primary, but with a new effect. Essentially, it will still work as a defense weapon and a finisher, and the secondary will still function as the melee and jumping method like the laser.

How could you have it behave like the shotgun primary? Can it be hitscan and still juggle people at range? Also, if it had a bullet spread it would be too much like the crylink(visually), and it would be extremely easy to juggle people.

What if the laser primary was kept the same, but the alt was some sort of shotgun type blast that doesn't juggle? Obviously, it couldn't look like a a shotgun blast though, to avoid redundancy(I guess a shockwave or something). Then we'd really only be losing melee.
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#48
I still belive one option did not get enough attention: cut the shotgun primary function.
Compared to playing with laser ("I do believe I can still have the long range juggling possibly" - but its short-mid range that matters!) thats definitely smaller change. Shotgun primary tends to make game kind of raw - like few players shooting only sg at each other untill one previals. Without sg primary you just need to pick something before fighting. And that way weapon system gets simpler. While some crazy laser-recharge-melee-can-still-have-juggling will be something weird at this point.

(05-20-2012, 05:09 AM)C.Brutail Wrote: The movement freedom coming from laserjumping MUST be penalised somehow, and it already is: you have to switch a gun for that.

Exactly. There is a big difference between having a weapon that lets you move and one that lets you move and deal damage. The latter I can only see reasonable if its melee dmg so you still need to switch weapon/laser/back in most cases.

(05-20-2012, 04:11 AM)Mepper Wrote: And also the LG shouldn't be as strong as weapon combos, even if you have a very good aim, it should just be a finishing weapon.

If LG would be more effective than combos - i.e. be kind of an overpowered uzi with short range, disguised in a new model - then it's a game changer and a lame quake cloning. I hope that's not what is planned as part of the new weapon system. It would be a major change at a late stage.
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#49
(05-20-2012, 12:24 AM)Samual Wrote: @ FruitieX... I actually suggested melee on all weapons quite a while ago... unfortunately, there are quite a lot of problems with this.. in the end I have determined it is neither feasible from a developer standpoint or from a balancing standpoint

How come? Melee animation for each weapon would probably be the most difficult (for us, anyway) part, but there's got to be a way to re-use the shotgun one for all the others...
Shouldn't be difficult from a balancing standpoint either, just treat it as another weapon there... Melee should of course do the same amount of damage no matter which weapon you are holding.
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#50
(05-20-2012, 05:24 AM)C.Brutail Wrote: He said in CTF, and sometimes. The shotgun most of the times works as a finishing weapon, and in CTF it happens a lot that you find someone who's allready beaten down to low health. There, the shotgun is a finishing weapon again, it's just not you who did the damage before. Good luck killing somebody fully stacked with only the shotgun.

http://stats.xonotic.org/game/29008
Final match of the FFA Quick cup, no XPM, only good players. Check the damage dealt per weapon of the winner, ZeroQL. I was able to win the first round though, and guess with which weapon I dealt the most damage (http://stats.xonotic.org/game/28993 )? On a big map where everyone can easily stack up to 150/50 at least, the nexgun and the mortar feel like water guns. Just go aggressive with your 50/80dmg spawnweapon instead of wasting your time with gathering weapons.
For me that's strictly in conflict with the idea of item-based gameplay.

This is offtopic but I meant to say that the weapon system in its current state is far from being very good or even perfect. On a side note, maybe ask yourself how biased you are (not you in person C.Brutali, but in general) when responding to critics. If an "experienced player" gives Xonotic a try and comes to the conclusion that the weapons are partly illogical and over-complicated, then the reaction usually is like this: He wants Xonotic to be exactly like quake/painkiller/ut/whatever his fav game is, his opinion can be neglected. If a new player gives Xonotic a try and doesn't see a clear concept in the weapon system, its only because he hasn't learned the game yet. Think about it, does such an attitude really help Xonotic to evolve? Do you want Xonotic to evolve or rather stick to as much legacy from Nexuiz as possible?
Saying that things shouldn't be changed because we are at 0.6 already(?) doesn't make sense either to me. It's still beta and far from being too late to be changed.
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