[SUGGESTION] Idea: Player-centric Xonotic

The idea: make Xonotic less server-centric and more player-centric.

I know that this idea is probably never going to be implemented, but it's OK to dream. The server-centric culture of Xonotic creates problems for players: they are forced to only play the settings for which there are servers, and can't do anything about misbehaving players when there's no admin on the server. It's a considerable barrier for mappers and modders: they have to either buy and administrate a server to host their maps or mods, or beg other players to do it for them.

I propose to replace the concept of a server with a concept of a game, like in Wesnoth and Hedgewars: temporary playing rooms players create and administrate games themselves, with the settings of their choice. I know there is the Create tab, but it's incomplete.

What should ideally be there:

• List of all players who have Xonotic opened, and shared chat for them all, with sound notifications. This will help players to find a partner to play with, or organize games.
  
• Cross-game private messages that allow to talk to a player who's in a full game.
  
• Easy way to distinguish servers that only have spectator-only slots left (for example 1x1 servers with 2 players).
  
• Friend and ignore system.
  
• Ability to create invite-only games.
  
• GUI for basic admin tools for game host.
  
• An easy way to install maps and mods from local filesystem.
  
• Add-on server, like in Wesnoth, for maps and mods.
  
• Host transfer: if the host leaves the game, the game state is transferred to another player who becomes a new host, so the host can leave without ending the game.
  

Now the greatest problem is that the Internet's architecture has been designed by the ONEist Global Government, so that it's hard to create servers from behind routers. Are there protocols for automatic port forwarding? How does WebRTC solve this?

A mock-up:

Who would be the one that actually runs the server the game is taking place on? You surely don't suggest to make the player host the server like in the current "create" tab?

This concept is quite radically different from what we have, and apart from incorporating the irc pickup channel into the game interface I don't yet see an added value, rather making it more complex for players to start a game (select maps, settings and so on as opposed to just join an empty server).

One thing I especially like about current Xonotic menus is that no matter what your resolution is the scaling of the menu won't fuck up like in Warsow.

Also, there could indeed be a more beginner way to spawn a modded server, maybe as some extension to the mutators window as there is some free space in there.

I propose to replace the concept of a server with a concept of a game, like in Wesnoth and Hedgewars: temporary playing rooms players create and administrate games themselves, with the settings of their choice.

Wesnoth and Hedgewars are turn based. This means that ping and connection speed are largely irrelevant for them. Xonotic is an FPS and as has been noticed many times, home machines being used as listen servers with other people connecting over the Internet gives bad PING.

That's the main reason why this wouldn't work well. Dedicated servers are better for playing Internet games on.

I don't yet see an added value

(1) Non-technical players can play game modes and mutators that no server runs (can also be addressed with votable servers with voting GUI).
(2) Non-technical players can play maps that no server has.
(3) Non-technical players can play mods that no server hosts.

rather making it more complex for players to start a game (select maps, settings and so on as opposed to just join an empty server).

Hedgewars has a lot of options, but it doesn't seem to be a problem for it. Xonotic has many options too, so there can't be a dedicated server for each and every combination of them.

Red Eclipse has something close to my idea: most of its servers are votable, and there's GUI for it, addressing (1). As a result, all game modes and many mutators get played.

The Hedgewars / Wesnoth approach is clearly the best approach for creating online game lobbies and dedicated servers are only a kludge that games have to use because of ping / connection speed / Global Government issues.

Wesnoth and Hedgewars are turn based. This means that ping and connection speed are largely irrelevant for them. Xonotic is an FPS and as has been noticed many times, home machines being used as listen servers with other people connecting over the Internet gives bad PING.

That's the main reason why this wouldn't work well. Dedicated servers are better for playing Internet games on.

Not everyone has this problem. People who can't host games can still play on servers (menu should call them 24/7 games, my mock-up has an example).

Having easy local game creation AND votable servers is the way to go.

Not everyone has this problem.

How do you come to that conclusion, Nikita Churaev? Most players will have never hosted a public listen server over the Internet and I can tell you from experience in the past, public listen servers on the Internet don't work well for multiple people to connect to. It might be fine for a 1v1 turn based strategy game but for an FPS, forget it. When you join one it often becomes obvious pretty quickly and you end up disconnecting because of the issues.

Also in a listen server the host has control over game type and if they decide to mess up the gameplay with silly weapon settings in game, change some graphics settings in Xonotic, lose connection, rage quit, have to Alt-Tab switch to look at an email that's just come in, whatever, no more game for anyone else either. Just forget about the idea, it is not well suited for FPS games, regardless of how it works for turn based strategy.

People who can't host games can still play on servers

Listen servers and dedicated servers all show up in dpmaster and dpmaster would become flooded with many listen servers that would be unplayable for everyone given the network connection issues. Much better that dpmaster only lists servers that offer decent gameplay rather than hundreds of iffy ones.

Lamefun, in your idea of the world, all people seem to be dumb, stupid and idiotic.

Also in a listen server the host has control over game type and if they decide to mess up the gameplay with silly weapon settings in game, change some graphics settings in Xonotic

Yes, people having more control of their games is exactly what this idea is about. If creating own servers is easy, crazy or stupid servers are bound to show up. In your dream world, is Xonotic locked down with DRM and people only play "approved" game modes?

lose connection, rage quit, have to Alt-Tab switch to look at an email that's just come in, whatever, no more game for anyone else either

Xonotic could have host transfer like in Wesnoth, if the host quits, another player becomes the host. If the host is not active, the remaining players should be able to vote kick the host, and initiate host transfer.

flooded with many listen servers

No, obviously they should not start automatically when Xonotic opens.

Most players will have never hosted a public listen server over the Internet and I can tell you from experience in the past, public listen servers on the Internet don't work well for multiple people to connect to. It might be fine for a 1v1 turn based strategy game but for an FPS, forget it. When you join one it often becomes obvious pretty quickly and you end up disconnecting because of the issues.

Didn't have this problem, guess not enough players joined. Maybe with advent of WebRTC companies will start caring about peer-to-peer connection quality; WebRTC developers plan that it'll be used for video chats, they must sure have higher network requirements than Xonotic...

Xonotic could have official relay servers for that case, that host game logic for players. When players run custom maps only functional map geomertry, items and game code should be uploaded, and full .pk3's distributed using peer-to-peer, add-on server or external HTTP server.

Although less people will set up Xonotic relays than normal servers, as people create normal servers so they can get some recognition and control. Is this idea be too expensive for Xonotic dev team?

I like how you answered to "your" quotes.

I like how you answered to "your" quotes.

Fixed, thanks.

Yes, people having more control of their games is exactly what this idea is about. If creating own servers is easy, crazy or stupid servers are bound to show up.

You've missed my point. The host is able to in real time mess up the game. How p'd off would you be if mid rocket jump the gravity suddenly switched off? Or if the host had a set of binds such that they could enable and disable weapon damage as it suited them? Dedicated servers could still allow this if the server admin wanted to be a basterd but then they generally wouldn't be a popular server.

This is all because Xonotic is so configurable that these things can be changed in game on the host, as they can in many FPS games. Wesnoth does not allow you to change the game mechanics in game does it? No, so stop referring to Wesnoth.

It would also not work for competitive gameplay for a game not to take place in neutral ground, the scope for cheating would exist and ping advantage would be with the host.

In your dream world, is Xonotic locked down with DRM and people only play "approved" game modes?

Lamefun, just shut up about DRM, Global Government, Proprietary software... or just anything really. What I think is people should be able to play whatever games they like, as it happens there isn't much demand for a server with a laser refire rate of ten billion per second so it doesn't exist. If however you have a listen server you can have a bit of fun playing with these things in real time but it is not appropriate for a public server.

Xonotic could have host transfer like in Wesnoth

Wesnoth is turn based. Xonotic is a fast paced shooter, there is no way they are in any way similar to implement host transfer. You're just showing how little you know about the subject and how you're just trolling.

No, obviously they should not start automatically when Xonotic opens.

No you moron, the server browser would just be full of irrelevant, poorly performing listen games with only two people in. Most people don't want 1v1 gameplay, most gametypes need more players to work. Therefore people would want to play on larger games and all of these public listen servers would not be popular.

Xonotic could have official relay servers for that case, that host game logic for players. When players run custom maps only functional map geomertry, items and game code should be uploaded, and full .pk3's distributed using peer-to-peer, add-on server or external HTTP server.

And why exactly would this have ANY advantage over the existing dedicated servers which host game logic and distribute pk3's via the map download feature?

as people create normal servers so they can get some recognition and control.

No, they create dedicated servers because they want to have somewhere to play games and help the community. This is particularly important if you're somewhere like Australia which is remote from other countries servers.

Is this idea be too expensive for Xonotic dev team?

Xonotic costs nothing. There is no cost in anything, no DRM, no propreitary software, no global government conspiracy. If something costs money to implement, it will not be implemented.

Let´s go to Whackity Wicktown!

Dedicated servers could still allow this if the server admin wanted to be a basterd but then they generally wouldn't be a popular server.

So wouldn't be games of that particular player.

This is all because Xonotic is so configurable that these things can be changed in game on the host, as they can in many FPS games. Wesnoth does not allow you to change the game mechanics in game does it? No, so stop referring to Wesnoth.

With custom map and some WML it does. For example, my map has teleporter item, you can abuse it, just replace the "has teleporter" condition with "it's side 1 turn", copy it to other map, and you can ruin the game just as you can in Xonotic.

It would also not work for competitive gameplay for a game not to take place in neutral ground, the scope for cheating would exist and ping advantage would be with the host.

Normal servers controlled by trusted players can be used for "super serious" competitive gameplay, and fake ping for host for normal gameplay.

as it happens there isn't much demand for a server with a laser refire rate of ten billion per second so it doesn't exist.

It also doesn't exist for many standard things, like rocket arena... I just want rocket arena!

Wesnoth is turn based. Xonotic is a fast paced shooter, there is no way they are in any way similar to implement host transfer. You're just showing how little you know about the subject and how you're just trolling.

The game would likely stop for a little when changing hosts. I'm not aware of any fundamental limitations that would make host transfer completely impossible.

Also, I know that the amount of work required is probably too much for it to be implemented (I don't know anything about Xonotic internals, so this might well be easy, and if relays are implemented, there won't be need for host transfer at all), that's why I said all this is just a dream.

And why exactly would this have ANY advantage over the existing dedicated servers which host game logic and distribute pk3's via the map download feature?

Non-technical players being able to play game modes, mutators, maps and mods that aren't present on any existing server, of course.

No you moron, the server browser would just be full of irrelevant, poorly performing listen games with only two people in. Most people don't want 1v1 gameplay, most gametypes need more players to work. Therefore people would want to play on larger games and all of these public listen servers would not be popular.

If relay servers are feasible to implement, temporary games can perform just as good as permanent servers.

No, they create dedicated servers because they want to have somewhere to play games and help the community. This is particularly important if you're somewhere like Australia which is remote from other countries servers.

You're so naive... I don't think anyone would create an Australian relay that would just quitely host temporary games for Australian players and wouldn't really show up anywhere (except maybe some obscure "credits" web page).

Xonotic costs nothing. There is no cost in anything, no DRM, no propreitary software, no global government conspiracy. If something costs money to implement, it will not be implemented.

Hosting xonotic.org, forums.xonotic.org, git.xonotic.org, dev.xonotic.org costs money, therefore Xonotic and this thread don't exist

Agreed. WW is the place for it. I could say somthing, but edh said everything already. Lamefun is pushing his look.

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ps(after reading new post) but personalyy, id ban lamefun.

Let´s go to Whackity Wicktown!

ps(after reading new post) but personalyy, id ban lamefun.

Thanks for your suggestions, but no and no.

Anyway, lamefun, I think you've spent too long thinking about this. You're thinking too fast for our development pace. There's no way any of your suggestions are realistic in practical terms for now, so there's no need to insist. You're asking for very low-level changes, but we have constraints imposed by the DarkPlaces engine which makes it impossible to change the protocol as radically as you would suggest.

Lobbies are not out of question because they can be added on top of what we already have, but that's all. And that's already a lot of work.

So, technical limitations alone make this discussion worthless. I don't agree with your design ideas, but I hope the more practical side of things will convince you that your suggestions aren't something we should try to achieve.

Better solution would be an external app launcher (something like that exist doesn't it?) witch chat, servers, rooms etc.

Better solution would be an external app launcher (something like that exist doesn't it?) witch chat, servers, rooms etc.

Or an in-game lobby with chat, servers, rooms, such as the one that's in the works. Although the developer disappeared it seems.