[SUGGESTION] A Melee Weapon

I think a melee weapon would be a great addition to the game, for really only one reason: It'd be fun as hell.

Imagine this, someone is sitting in one spot continuously nexxing you and your team. One time you manage to sneak behind him and he has no idea you're there. Nothing would be more rewarding than killing him with some sort of melee weapon. He tries to do it again, same spot? You do the same thing, making him feel stupid. Also, melee battles would be a lot more fun than laser battles.

As for actual implementation of the weapon: I really like how the Gauntlet works in Quake 3. I don't want to see a third weapon given to everyone at start, so I'd like to see it added to the laser. If you hold down the fire button on the laser, it creates a large glow of whatever the laser shoots, when this touches someone it does some damage. When you let go of fire after getting this glow, the laser wouldn't shoot a laser shot, it'd just go away. So you'd have two fire modes for the laser, quick tap of the fire button would be normal laser action, hold it down and you get melee ball of death.

Damage on the melee part would have to be tuned, but ~50 doesn't sound unreasonable.

Nice idea. I would really like to see a melee weapon added to the secondary for the laser. Also that was on of my favorite things about quakelive was killing people with the gauntlet. And maybe add an electric shock type thing from the gun to the other player for added coolness.

I think a melee weapon would be a great addition to the game, for really only one reason: It'd be fun as hell.

Imagine this, someone is sitting in one spot continuously nexxing you and your team. One time you manage to sneak behind him and he has no idea you're there. Nothing would be more rewarding than killing him with some sort of melee weapon. He tries to do it again, same spot? You do the same thing, making him feel stupid. Also, melee battles would be a lot more fun than laser battles.

As for actual implementation of the weapon: I really like how the Gauntlet works in Quake 3. I don't want to see a third weapon given to everyone at start, so I'd like to see it added to the laser. If you hold down the fire button on the laser, it creates a large glow of whatever the laser shoots, when this touches someone it does some damage. When you let go of fire after getting this glow, the laser wouldn't shoot a laser shot, it'd just go away. So you'd have two fire modes for the laser, quick tap of the fire button would be normal laser action, hold it down and you get melee ball of death.

Damage on the melee part would have to be tuned, but ~50 doesn't sound unreasonable.

Nice idea. I would really like to see a melee weapon added to the secondary for the laser. Also that was on of my favorite things about quakelive was killing people with the gauntlet. And maybe add an electric shock type thing from the gun to the other player for added coolness.

BAD IDEA. If a melee is introduced it must be OFF HAND. Do we really need to turn this into one of the "overwhelming majority" that "feels the need to equip you with an axe, a dagger, a cleaver, a @#$@'n tuba"?

I'm sorry, I've missed a lot of the discussion on this.

But why must a melee weapon be off-hand? What would the game gain by adding this level of complication (adding another key for melee attack) that couldn't be achieved in another, simpler way?

I'm sorry, I've missed a lot of the discussion on this.

But why must a melee weapon be off-hand? What would the game gain by adding this level of complication (adding another key for melee attack) that couldn't be achieved in another, simpler way?

Because using the gauntlet in Quake III was bad enough, you honestly think it would work in Xonotic? Xonotic and Nexuiz are too fast paced for a switchable melee, if you end up in someone's face they'll usually just blast you at point-blank. An off-hand melee would be useful though because it would be good for putting distance between players and prevent someone from blowing themselves up.

Because it would take too long to whip out the laser every time you get humped. This way, you can get close, melee damage, when they start retreating, quickly nex them (you never put the nex away).

Xonotic and Nexuiz are too fast paced for a switchable melee.

Absolutly don't buy it. Sorry, simply not true.

If someone gets up in your grill and you're not shooting at them with something like the shotgun or mg, you need to rethink how you handle that situation. Pushing them away would not help. If everyone turned into those bumpers from pinball with everyone pushing each other away, the game would only get more fast-paced with everyone changing directions seemingly at random.

You're assuming people running into each other is bad. Not true. If anything this keeps the game at a reasonable pace on smaller compact maps.

Pushing someone away while they're shooting you seems silly (who brings fists to a gun fight?). I can understand being able to melee zombies with any gun out in a game like Left 4 Dead, but they don't shoot at you. Plus, how is shooting and meleeing at the same time even possible? Aside from a bayonet, which would be pretty cool.

If you somehow manage to get good at shooting and meleeing people at the same time how does that not make the gameplay even faster? Making it a separate weapon (though not really since it's on the laser and you should already have the laser out quite a bit) makes it so that's not possible and doesn't actually change the pace of the game. Sure it might not get used very often, but it's something fun to use when you get the chance. Not only is it fun, it doesn't change the core gameplay, where pinball off-hand melee push would.

You're assuming that the fast paced action is a bad thing. We're not. YES if players could reflexively knock others back when they collide, the game would have a faster pace. That's what we want.

We're running around and shooting and moving freely and everything is fast and furious, and then we go to run through a doorway and *thump* come to a dead hault against another player. Oh we keep shooting of course, but at the same time, we are standing still, trying to get around him so we can move freely again. For the second or two it takes to do this, we feel like the game has come to a stop, as if there's something we should be doing, but can't. What we want to be able to do is send the guy flying.

Hmm...
Since a lot of people want a melee weapon for the purpose of knocking players back when they're humping you, and the laser already has the ability to knock players around... maybe what we really need to be thinking about is changing the laser so that it can better serve that function. Obviously this must not have a negative effect on it's usefulness for laser jumping.

The first step would obviously be to make the laser an offhand function. Something which would be useful for it's current locomotive uses as well.

Another thing might be to make the laser 'projectile' itself bigger, so that when a player is off to the side, but still filling half your screen, a laser blast won't slip past him. This might also affect how it functions when used for laser jumping though... but it might be a positive effect. A larger projectile, when exploding on contact with a surface would mean the center of the explosion would be farther from that surface, making it easier to get lateral motion out of a laser jump instead of always perpendicular to the surface. A LOT of testing would need to be done to make sure this doesn't break laser jumping, and even then I expect resistance to any change to the laser's function, but if Xonotic is seen as a fresh start, then maybe we can get away with it.

The first step would obviously be to make the laser an offhand function.

That's not an obvious step at all. The implications of such a step are huge and should be considered before you say it's obvious.

Biggest problem that leaps at me: Defense on CTF would be next to impossible. It's already pretty difficult to stop someone who's good at movement from getting the flag. Now I can only imagine how much more difficult that becomes if they can't move like that and shoot back.

I'm sorry, the whole off-hand weapon thing still seems completely silly. It adds an unnecessary complication to game for no benefit. The fundamental gameplay with the laser is far from broken and is actually a lot of fun as it is. You could even say it's what makes this game this game. SO why are you trying to change it?

Here's what I'm trying to say in a couple sentences.

There is no need for an off-hand push you away function, in fact, it would make the game needlessly complex (K.I.S.S). If there is to be a melee weapon, which would be a ton of fun, tweaking the laser in a way that does not alter the existing gameplay at all to add a melee functionality is the best way to do it.

I guess people think that Xonotic should be part of "the overwhelming majority" that "feels the need to equip you with a chainsaw, an axe, dagger, a cleaver, a @#%@'n tuba". Oh wait, we already have a @#%@'n tuba.

Yeah, you posted that already and I still don't have any idea what it means.

Yeah, you posted that already and I still don't have any idea what it means.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SmpITVtnMXk

I could be terrible at comprehending at what you're trying to say, but I still don't get it.

I could be terrible at comprehending at what you're trying to say, but I still don't get it.

Basically I'm reinforcing the fact that almost EVERY 3D game has a melee weapon, or a melee attack.

So?

There might be a reason for that. Personally I find embarrassing people by killing them with said melee weapon to be tons of fun. If it's fun, who cares if it's everywhere?

Just because every 3D game has, doesn't mean it suits Nexuiz/Xonotic play. An off hand would be useful, but trying to actually switch to something non ballistic would get you killed. A shove would be good because it would create breathing room between players, which really is all that a melee should do.

That's not an obvious step at all. The implications of such a step are huge and should be considered before you say it's obvious.

I said the first step WOULD obviously be to make the laser offhand. I am talking hypothetically about making the laser useful for the purposes being discussed here. IF the laser has any hope of being used for the purpose being discussed here, it has to be offhand. I know an offhand laser would have other implications. Don't freak out over nothing. Perhaps it's not a good idea, but in that case, the laser cannot function for the purpose being discussed here. It's as simple as that.

Biggest problem that leaps at me: Defense on CTF would be next to impossible. It's already pretty difficult to stop someone who's good at movement from getting the flag. Now I can only imagine how much more difficult that becomes if they can't move like that and shoot back.

Your imagination seems oddly biased. The door swings both ways. Sure, any new ability has the potential to be useful to a flag-runner, but then it can also be useful to defenders. For example, defenders would gain the ability to continue shooting at flag runners while they use the laser to knock those speedsters off course, and pursue them by laser jumping themselves.

I'm sorry, the whole off-hand weapon thing still seems completely silly. It adds an unnecessary complication to game for no benefit. The fundamental gameplay with the laser is far from broken and is actually a lot of fun as it is. You could even say it's what makes this game this game. SO why are you trying to change it?

The benefit is the knockback function being discussed here. I'm not saying the laser is broken, just that if there is an ability players want, then it's worth considering if a change to the laser can give it that ability without interfering with it's current uses.

There is no need for an off-hand push you away function, in fact, it would make the game needlessly complex (K.I.S.S).

I don't think you know what that means. You could just as easily say this to argue against ANY weapon or function in the game. Don't like rocket launchers? Oh it's a needless complexity, the game would be simpler with one less weapon. Please, give us some credit.

If there is to be a melee weapon, which would be a ton of fun, tweaking the laser in a way that does not alter the existing gameplay at all to add a melee functionality is the best way to do it.

...So you want a melee weapon, but because you don't want to alter gameplay in any way, you only want a melee weapon that nobody can use. Brilliant.

Just because every 3D game has, doesn't mean it suits Nexuiz/Xonotic play. An off hand would be useful, but trying to actually switch to something non ballistic would get you killed. A shove would be good because it would create breathing room between players, which really is all that a melee should do.

Every game may have it, but it is not used as the main weapon, it is mostly to kill an unsuspecting foe. So if you switch to something non ballistic and they don't notice you before its too late you mostly likely wouldn't get killed. But if you do switch to it in open combat there is a slim chance of you winning. And the shove... could be very exploitable, and how far it would push the other player because we have a weapon that pushes but also does damage...shotgun. And I can't really see shooting your weapon while pushing someone back as very good situation. Since it is offhand you could just use it at anytime right?

I can tell this getting to be serious business. Instead of trying to reply (clearly worthless). I'll ask you what you want.

What does having an off-hand melee weapon actually mean? How exactly does it work? How/Why would I use it? How would this make the game better? Is there a simpler way?

Be as specific as possible. YOU consider the implications and write it out for me. Be articulate. I will try my best to understand and I might end up posting my opinion on it. I've put too much effort into this than was worth. Blabbering on saying stuff like "I don't think you know what that means" doesn't help anyone and really shows how little effort you put into comprehending what I wrote.

I thought I was bringing something positive and new to the discussion and it quickly turned into a OMG YOUR IDEA SUCKS IT HAS TO BE THIS WAY. I hope this won't become a trend for all ideas posted into this forum.

I would defintely agree with. Vbraun here. A melee weapon does not need to be offhand because xonotic is too fast paced. The laser is probably already equipped majority of the time anyways. Also having an offhand melee is much more difficult to implement because it would require a new animation and bone tag for each player model. K.I.S.S. as vbraun already said. That being said I will look into the laser code to try vbrauns method. I imagine a red orb turning to green or something to recognize that its being used as a melee.

I would defintely agree with. Vbraun here. A melee weapon does not need to be offhand because xonotic is too fast paced.

As has been said, switching to the melee weapon will get you killed.

The laser is probably already equipped majority of the time anyways.

No. Usually serious weapons are.

Also having an offhand melee is much more difficult to implement because it would require a new animation and bone tag for each player model.

We're revamping all the models anyway. It's really now or never.

So? Even if we do revamp models and more modelers come along they don't want to have to do 20+ animations. I know I already hate doing as many as there are currently. adding more wouldnt make sense to me. this also creates a problem with people who choose to use left handed mode. This would require a major weapon system rewrite and everyone seems to have their plate pretty much full. It definitely doesn't seem feasible to me.

So? Even if we do revamp models and more modelers come along they don't want to have to do 20+ animations.

Slippery slope fallacy?

this also creates a problem with people who choose to use left handed mode

We don't need to indicate which hand people are using outwardly. It's not a planned feature iirc and it's better this way.

This would require a major weapon system rewrite and everyone seems to have their plate pretty much full.

One more weapon with a different animation is a total rewrite?

No but the left handed weapon would require a pretty substantial amount of code change because it would add another bone to all the models and animations. by left handed mode i mean what the I SEE not my opponent/teammate. i dont mean to sound rude or bring down your idea but good luck finding someone to do this.

I don't understand. Hook can already be set as offhand, so apparently left handed mode is handled somehow. The framework for offhanded weapons obviously exists, then.

Even if you are using the off-hand hook there is no model because there is no bone to attach to. Also using left handed mode the hook still shoots from the left side so no there is no framework for offhanded weapons obviously.