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[SUGGESTION] Electro balls popping on impact

#1
So I've been using the electro a lot lately. It seems to me that combos are the biggest strength of the weapon. but the primary fire is also pretty strong. However, the secondary fire is essentially useless outside of a combo. The balls do some damage, but given the ammo used and overall ineffectiveness of the balls when compared to other energy weapons, it makes no sense to use them outside of a combo(unless the intention is to mess with the opponent's head Big Grin)

And since the balls explode when touched they make aiming your combos at the opponent(or his feet) a risky tactic, because if he touches them, the combo is lost. Because of this, accuracy with an electro combo is somewhat discouraged, and spamming around the opponent becomes the way to go. This doesn't seem right to me, that better aim and player prediction would be punished and spamming would be encouraged.

Is this intentional to balance the weapon, or just an oversight with the weapon design? No other weapon seems to have a possibility for failure with better accuracy, and this would be an odd way to balance something.

I'd like to see the electro balls "popping" on impact removed. I think this function does nothing more than discourage accuracy and encourage spam.
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#2
I see what you're saying, but I think the balls exploding on impact is useful for setting up traps or preventing people from entering through a door or a pathway.
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#3
How about making them sticky?
[Image:http://i.imgur.com/4XODR.png]640K ought to be enough for anybody.
     ― Linux Torvalds
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#4
I think it involves a bit of prediction to use Electro blobs effecivelly, instead of aiming directly at an opponent, launch them ahead of him, shaving off a large chunk of damage, then finish him with the shotgun,
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#5
Well, if someone collides into them, it still does damage, just less than if you detonated them via combo.

Instead, I'd rather see greater incentive to do combos with balls mid air. It's not all that hard to use splash of primary to detonate a ball while still in the air (but still harder than on the ground), so I'd think little bump in dmg (around +10 to 15) is enough. But if you score a direct hit on a ball, explosion size should be very sizable. Especially, since you can't do them any faster than if you shot 3 balls on the ground and it's one explosion vs 3.
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#6
I think I'd go for sticky electro balls.

How about sticky but slowly slipping down the walls? Wink
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#7
I think it involves a bit of prediction to use Electro blobs effectively, instead of aiming directly at an opponent, launch them ahead of him, shaving off a large chunk of damage, then finish him with the shotgun,
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#8
(05-25-2012, 01:11 PM)rocknroll237 Wrote: I see what you're saying, but I think the balls exploding on impact is useful for setting up traps or preventing people from entering through a door or a pathway.

The exploding on impact is not the thing that prevents people from approaching the balls, it's the possibility of a combo. You can jump over the balls quite easily too.

(05-25-2012, 01:25 PM)Mr. Bougo Wrote: How about making them sticky?

I would love that! I thought about suggesting it, but that's what Illfonic's Nexuiz, so I didn't know how people would respond to it. Also, with the current 3 balls at once secondary fire, it might be a little OP.

(05-25-2012, 01:28 PM)Shadowman84 Wrote: I think it involves a bit of prediction to use Electro blobs effecivelly, instead of aiming directly at an opponent, launch them ahead of him, shaving off a large chunk of damage, then finish him with the shotgun,

Well, that's how it works now because aiming at the opponent has a possibility for failure. But why does the gun HAVE to be used that way? Also, it takes no more skill or prediction to aim ahead of the opponent than it does to aim at them.

(05-25-2012, 01:35 PM)rafallus Wrote: Well, if someone collides into them, it still does damage, just less than if you detonated them via combo.

Yeah, I was saying I don't like that and would like it removed. It's a hindrance to the main ability of the weapon: the combo.
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#9
(05-25-2012, 01:47 PM)W4RP1G Wrote:
(05-25-2012, 01:25 PM)Mr. Bougo Wrote: How about making them sticky?

I would love that! I thought about suggesting it, but that's what Illfonic's Nexuiz, so I didn't know how people would respond to it. Also, with the current 3 balls at once secondary fire, it might be a little OP.

Oh, they did that... I didn't know.

Better not copy anything from them, that would be so inconsiderate. (/s)
[Image:http://i.imgur.com/4XODR.png]640K ought to be enough for anybody.
     ― Linux Torvalds
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#10
It´s not totally useless to spam three balls into a doorway or something similar because the opponent still has to worry that you´ll wait for him and do the combo with one single primary shot.

And firing the balls directly into your opponent is still quite powerful. Not at long range of course, but in a close combat it deals high damage. I often had the situation that the opponent ran into me, tried to blow me up with a rocket or grenadelauncher but was instantly killed because I fired three electro balls at him (plus grenade damage of himself).
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#11
(05-25-2012, 03:52 PM)Maddin Wrote: It´s not totally useless to spam three balls into a doorway or something similar because the opponent still has to worry that you´ll wait for him and do the combo with one single primary shot.

That's the point I was trying to make already, that the threat from the electro balls isn't in the damage they do when they pop, but in the threat of a combo. I agree, they work well for traps.

Quote:And firing the balls directly into your opponent is still quite powerful. Not at long range of course, but in a close combat it deals high damage. I often had the situation that the opponent ran into me, tried to blow me up with a rocket or grenadelauncher but was instantly killed because I fired three electro balls at him (plus grenade damage of himself).

Yeah they are damaging in situations like that, I just think that's more of a random occurrence than anything. I suppose you could go around trying to shoot people with the balls, but it just seems like the most logical thing would be to do a combo since it does more damage in a large radius. If you are shooting the opponent with the balls, you are cheating your self out of doing a combo.

It would be different if a direct hit with the balls was more powerful than the combo, because then there would be a good reason to aim directly at the enemy. As far as I can tell, 3 balls directly does 120dmg, a combo does 150dmg. Plus the combo has a larger range and requires less precision, so it's very forgiving. It just seems illogical to me to try and hit someone with the balls when a combo could be done much easier and with greater rewards.
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#12
150 dmg?? But only when the opponent stands directly in the combo explosion I guess...
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#13
Balls aren't ever in the same spot, it is physically impossible to ever get full damage from combo (it is never a direct hit, if you set it off).

If those numbers did not change, there is a chart from 2.5.2:

http://nexuiz.affro.net/WeaponData/

But someone needs to confirm if dmg values are still valid for electro.
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#14
Probably not the right values anymore as health and armor got capped now at 200 whereas you could reach way more in Nexuiz.
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#15
(05-25-2012, 04:49 PM)Maddin Wrote: 150 dmg?? But only when the opponent stands directly in the combo explosion I guess...

Yeah probably true. and as it stand now, the player could only do that if the balls dont pop Tongue

But still, the odds of hitting someone with all 3 balls at any range but right next to them are probably not very high(unless they aren't moving). I just don't see that happening against skilled players. If someone were to prove my theories wrong, I'm ok with that. it's just that I can't imagine that trying to shoot my opponent directly with the 3 balls would be being practical vs the combo.

(05-25-2012, 04:56 PM)rafallus Wrote: Balls aren't ever in the same spot, it is physically impossible to ever get full damage from combo (it is never a direct hit, if you set it off).

I haven't really test to see what the average damage is. This makes me curious because with most weapons the damage depends on the players accuracy, but with the electro combos, it depends on the use of the maps and knowledge of the ball "spread"(for lack of a better word). So in theory, a highly skilled electro user would be significantly more efficient per combo vs an average user.

Anyway, the chart you posted isn't accurate anymore. it's:

Primary - 40dmg
Secondary - 40dmg
Combo - 50dmg/300radius/25edge of damage
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#16
I'll help shed some light on the electro combo's true power. Your value of 150 damage is wrong. The way an electro combo works is the primary fire hits a target (player or wall) and deals damage. Then the combo begins and the secondary balls do 3 damage. The theoretical maximum is 190 dmg (primary+secondarycombo = 40+150 = 190). I tried to test this out and nifrek & I could get 187 damage out of a direct hit+electro combo. That's this video:



Now, since that's cleared up... 150 damage in gameplay with this thing is definitely possible. It's happened to me and I've done it to people. While I do not have a video of 150+, I have the next best thing:



In this instance, taken from an actual match, Bolwind came from around the corner and hit me with a combo. The primary shot hit me for 39 damage. Then 2 secondary balls 'ignited' in a combo, dealing a further 74 pts of damage. Then the third ball ignited and dealt a further 34 points of damage. This is a grand total of 145 damage, taking my health/armour down to 60/13 from 118/100. This video is slowed down to 10%/1% speed to show how the combo actually worked. If the first or third ball had been closer (achieved by delaying primary fire a just a little bit to give them time to catch up/bounce back off the wall), it could have easily been a 155-170 damage hit.
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#17
I think this issue is a complicated one, because while players with a strong aim and good prediction can do crazy amount of damage with it, it's nearly a useless weapon for new players or ones that can't prediect well. Also, even the "competitive" players don't use that weapon much, at least not until very recently, but it's starting to get more and more use. It's like a new discovery and it's so strong that it can break maps. It's not really problem yet, but I feel it will be gradually more obvious as more people figure that out, it's like a hidden secret that only a select few know about.

It's nicely balanced for a map like Stormkeep because there is room to dodge.moving players aren't always sitting in the middle of combo explosion, it's mainly good for blocking entrances (like the warpzone, or entrance from mortar room that lead to megahealth, etc.). But it completely dominates on a map like Drain with all the tight hallways and corners, you can use electro even without your opponent being directly in your line of sight almost everywhere on the map. It's often impossible to dodge, because the combo explosion has huge radius. You barely hear the firing sound and more often than not, you die instantly before turning a corner or slowing down to avoid it.

Probably good to point out that it probably affects XPM a lot more than default, since in default it's easier to stack health/armor over 100/100.

Anyway, I guess I don't have solution for it, maybe it's just a matter of putting it on the right maps? I suppose the main issue is that it's very easy to use for skilled players, useless for low skilled players. I don't even think I've ever felt threatened by electro combo when dueling low to medium skilled players, and I feel cheap using electro combo when playing those players because I can predict their movement, so I try to not use it unless I don't have other weapons. When playing high skilled players, I only use it when either they're abusing it against me (which only happens on Drain really) or when I feel like it's the only weapon that makes sense to use in specific situations.
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#18
Wow, i'm impressed how spot on srkdy is. Really, I am - I was going to come on here and explain just how it works in the code, and he already nailed the maximum damage from a three-orb combo (190) and other such details etc. Seriously, I now really like you and respect you.

Anyway, a direct hit with the secondary orbs is CERTAINLY 40 damage whereas a combo is 50 damage maximum -- at best, you're only doing 30 damage less (out of 190...) if the orbs hit the player directly.. and that's comparing to the best combo you can possibly do. So really, the orbs impacting directly has no adverse affect in general.

I have considered sticky orbs btw -- but, they're tricky... There are a number of technical challenges with them, and honestly it's just not worth it as a concept anyway.
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#19
Wow, this thread has some great insight into how effective the electro can be.

I think the sticky orb suggestion raises a few more questions. Would that raise or lower the skill ceiling for using the electro? And would the weapon require a nerf with that implemented?

As it stand now, doing the full 190dmg requires all 3 orbs and the primary to hit the player very close, right? I'm sure it happens, but really how often? If you made the orbs stick to the player, you could do 190dmg much more frequently, which might make it OP. But if you nerf the damage to compensate, you now make the weapon less useful, and possibly even underpowered, when spamming around corners, setting traps, ect..

That could change the use of the weapon entirely making it reward accuracy more than anything. And if the weapon is OP in tight maps, like Nifrek suggested, then it could possibly become more balanced as well. But, setting traps and messing with the player's head then MIGHT become less useful. Unfortunately, I don't see any way of adding sticky orbs without nerfing either damage or rate of fire.
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#20
(05-26-2012, 09:12 AM)nifrek Wrote: I think this issue is a complicated one, because while players with a strong aim and good prediction can do crazy amount of damage with it, it's nearly a useless weapon for new players or ones that can't prediect well. Also, even the "competitive" players don't use that weapon much, at least not until very recently, but it's starting to get more and more use. It's like a new discovery and it's so strong that it can break maps. It's not really problem yet, but I feel it will be gradually more obvious as more people figure that out, it's like a hidden secret that only a select few know about.

It's nicely balanced for a map like Stormkeep because there is room to dodge.moving players aren't always sitting in the middle of combo explosion, it's mainly good for blocking entrances (like the warpzone, or entrance from mortar room that lead to megahealth, etc.). But it completely dominates on a map like Drain with all the tight hallways and corners, you can use electro even without your opponent being directly in your line of sight almost everywhere on the map. It's often impossible to dodge, because the combo explosion has huge radius. You barely hear the firing sound and more often than not, you die instantly before turning a corner or slowing down to avoid it.

Probably good to point out that it probably affects XPM a lot more than default, since in default it's easier to stack health/armor over 100/100.

Anyway, I guess I don't have solution for it, maybe it's just a matter of putting it on the right maps? I suppose the main issue is that it's very easy to use for skilled players, useless for low skilled players. I don't even think I've ever felt threatened by electro combo when dueling low to medium skilled players, and I feel cheap using electro combo when playing those players because I can predict their movement, so I try to not use it unless I don't have other weapons. When playing high skilled players, I only use it when either they're abusing it against me (which only happens on Drain really) or when I feel like it's the only weapon that makes sense to use in specific situations.


Your always going to have an issue with lesser skilled/new players, that's just how things are.

I don't see anything wrong with it, learn to out-fox your opponent if your playing equal skilled opponents. If your constantly taking damage (not you personally), then your being too predictable/just aimlessly running in trying to rush an item, in which case, you should be dying/receiving big amounts of damage from it more times then not.

Prediction is a skill. Nothing pisses me off more when weapons get under-powered because something like the electro is claimed to be 'OP' (overpowered), and then it get's made weaker, and then opponents just seem to be able to rush an item and be able to grab it because you can no longer do enough damage to them to stop them even though your using your ability to predict them.

Whilst I admit it's strong on a map like drain, it also means someone can't just go rush that lower armour if they have a MH and top armour for example, or even the top armour if there facing someone with an electro. Or if they try rush it to grab it, they get punished by big damage or death. For me, that shows good awareness and weapon usage if you can get yourself into a good position to keep an enemy away from an item, getting yourself into a good position and watching your opponent wade through combo because they know they are likely to be able to just rush you consistently, throws balance out that way. Not to mention it cuts down on the lack of thinking ability.

Having sticky balls is a bad idea, as it means you can cut down the distance you have to be from a player to fire them at the floor to explode them. Which basically means instead of them bouncing a bit and you having to predict (if your firing down at the ground rather then outwards) and then moving backwards to explode them, you can stick them directly in front of you then exploding you, which means it's going to be ridiculously hard for someone to be able to use good movement/dodging skills to get in close at you. It will also mean you can stick the balls on weapons and right next to an item.

Just the ability to be able to stick them directly at your feet as you proceed to back off worries me, it'll only make the weapon stronger that way, and be harder for people to get at you.
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#21
(05-26-2012, 09:22 AM)Samual Wrote: I have considered sticky orbs btw -- but, they're tricky... There are a number of technical challenges with them, and honestly it's just not worth it as a concept anyway.

Don't, i already tried that. sounds good in theory, but tricky to do and once done it just don't feel right anyway. Blobs not exploding on player touch does make the combo more tactical, tough.

edit:
also, we have the mine-layer for stickiness
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#22
(05-26-2012, 03:53 PM)tZork Wrote: Blobs not exploding on player touch does make the combo more tactical, tough.

It also makes the secondary fire pretty much useless when not used in a combo :-P. Personally I think the electro is just right the way it is currently.
My contributions to Xonotic: talking in the forum, talking some more, talking a bit in the irc, talking in the forum again, XSkie
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#23
(05-26-2012, 03:42 PM)kojn^ Wrote:
(05-26-2012, 09:12 AM)nifrek Wrote: I think this issue is a complicated one, because while players with a strong aim and good prediction can do crazy amount of damage with it, it's nearly a useless weapon for new players or ones that can't prediect well. Also, even the "competitive" players don't use that weapon much, at least not until very recently, but it's starting to get more and more use. It's like a new discovery and it's so strong that it can break maps. It's not really problem yet, but I feel it will be gradually more obvious as more people figure that out, it's like a hidden secret that only a select few know about.

It's nicely balanced for a map like Stormkeep because there is room to dodge.moving players aren't always sitting in the middle of combo explosion, it's mainly good for blocking entrances (like the warpzone, or entrance from mortar room that lead to megahealth, etc.). But it completely dominates on a map like Drain with all the tight hallways and corners, you can use electro even without your opponent being directly in your line of sight almost everywhere on the map. It's often impossible to dodge, because the combo explosion has huge radius. You barely hear the firing sound and more often than not, you die instantly before turning a corner or slowing down to avoid it.

Probably good to point out that it probably affects XPM a lot more than default, since in default it's easier to stack health/armor over 100/100.

Anyway, I guess I don't have solution for it, maybe it's just a matter of putting it on the right maps? I suppose the main issue is that it's very easy to use for skilled players, useless for low skilled players. I don't even think I've ever felt threatened by electro combo when dueling low to medium skilled players, and I feel cheap using electro combo when playing those players because I can predict their movement, so I try to not use it unless I don't have other weapons. When playing high skilled players, I only use it when either they're abusing it against me (which only happens on Drain really) or when I feel like it's the only weapon that makes sense to use in specific situations.


Your always going to have an issue with lesser skilled/new players, that's just how things are.

I don't see anything wrong with it, learn to out-fox your opponent if your playing equal skilled opponents. If your constantly taking damage (not you personally), then your being too predictable/just aimlessly running in trying to rush an item, in which case, you should be dying/receiving big amounts of damage from it more times then not.

Prediction is a skill. Nothing pisses me off more when weapons get under-powered because something like the electro is claimed to be 'OP' (overpowered), and then it get's made weaker, and then opponents just seem to be able to rush an item and be able to grab it because you can no longer do enough damage to them to stop them even though your using your ability to predict them.

Whilst I admit it's strong on a map like drain, it also means someone can't just go rush that lower armour if they have a MH and top armour for example, or even the top armour if there facing someone with an electro. Or if they try rush it to grab it, they get punished by big damage or death. For me, that shows good awareness and weapon usage if you can get yourself into a good position to keep an enemy away from an item, getting yourself into a good position and watching your opponent wade through combo because they know they are likely to be able to just rush you consistently, throws balance out that way. Not to mention it cuts down on the lack of thinking ability.

Having sticky balls is a bad idea, as it means you can cut down the distance you have to be from a player to fire them at the floor to explode them. Which basically means instead of them bouncing a bit and you having to predict (if your firing down at the ground rather then outwards) and then moving backwards to explode them, you can stick them directly in front of you then exploding you, which means it's going to be ridiculously hard for someone to be able to use good movement/dodging skills to get in close at you. It will also mean you can stick the balls on weapons and right next to an item.

Just the ability to be able to stick them directly at your feet as you proceed to back off worries me, it'll only make the weapon stronger that way, and be harder for people to get at you.

Well, someone mentioned possibly lowering the combo radius, which isn't too bad of an idea. The blast radius -is- pretty big, and it leaves the prediction aspect you mentioned in there. The damage would still be there, it would just make it more difficult to hit them.
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#24
Quote:Personally I think the electro is just right the way it is currently.

This.
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#25
(05-27-2012, 10:24 AM)kojn^ Wrote:
Quote:Personally I think the electro is just right the way it is currently.

This.

Yep. Electro is just right imo.
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