Changes to weapon settings wanted?

In order to give the "pro players" their definite answer about the community's opinion: I'll ask this here. Should we in your opinion make medium to big changes to the default weapons? (small tweaks such as only changing damage to balance them out doesn't count)

Are you open to changes when it comes to the weapon balance, or would you instead prefer them to stay as close as possible to the Nexuiz weapons? Some problems with the Nexuiz balance have been highlighted, such as many weapons functioning very similarily, laser allowing movement in any direction too easily, rockets having health occasionally causing them to randomily splode right in front of you if mistimed vs an enemy nade, etc. That stuff obviously can't be fixed without big changes to the balance, and as these problems induce randomness which at least competitive players hate, they should maybe get fixed.

Putting "No" at the top for convenience.

Voted no, just small tweaks to even out the weapons in terms of damage is the best, I think (oh, and I love it when I nade someone right when they shoot a rocket, so they get two explosions for my price of one <3 )

Voted no, as in my opinion the weapon balance of Nexuiz is quite allright (at least the one used for the DCC's servers, which is, as I believe, quite near to current Nexuiz SVN). I never found the weapon balancing issue so much of a problem.

Voted no also because you mentioned that the laser lets you move too easily in any direction and it is very important to me that it stays that way. I just LOVE that weapon both for movement (the Nuclear Jackrabbit Effect) and for pushing people around (the Juggler Effect). This weapon is just AWESOME. Fun guaranteed, if used right. And I find, that it is not a very easy to use tool (at least regarding the Juggler Effect).

Not voting because I could both love a change or hate it. It depends on the change.

Some problems with the Nexuiz balance have been highlighted, such as many weapons functioning very similarily, laser allowing movement in any direction too easily, rockets having health occasionally causing them to randomily splode right in front of you if mistimed vs an enemy nade, etc.

Those only seem to be semi-problems, I'd much rather see minor fixes to this instead of a major makeover... Voted no.

(Also, I fail to see what's to hate about laser movement, after all it has a health cost!)

I don't know whether to say yes or no since making the weapons act more like themselves seems to be a rather drastic thing.

Voted yes, Muhahaha!

I would like to see the laser, shotgun, nex and electro replaced, redesigned or overhauled.

I have mixed feelings about the proposals of thinning out weapons due to too much similarity. I think there's improvements to be made with regards to this, but it should be done carefully as too much diversity could lead to extreme specialization and domination of certain weapons in certain on certain maps or parts thereof. For instance if the MG couldn't 'snipe' as well as it could, the nex/rifle could become too dominant in open spaces. So you do need and want some overlap, just how much is the question.

I voted no, as I really like the dynamics of the weapons the way they are.
I love the speed of nexuiz, the way you can chase and overtake an enemy if you are prepared to sacrifice some more health, walking the fine line between speeding ahead and death.
The way I see the weapons is that most of them have in one way or another influence on the speed and agility of the user or the opponent.

Laser, basic tool for getting around quickly, really opens options on some maps with jump pads.
RL, doubles as a big boost with decent damage, and one of the only ways to prevent falling into instant death pits when you are thrown of the level.
Grenades getting stuck on jump pads give a lot more potions to laser padding. Etc. etc.

Thats what I like about the game, and it would be a shame for those dynamics to be thrown out of the window.

voted yes. Anything could be better than the current state when it comes to ctf or 1-1. I am sick and tired of nex/mortar rinse repeat mode. even the laser could be thoroughly modified (mortar is there 4 the same effect at a larger selfdmg cost).

Hmm
good question, The current weapons are ok, but in any way they need to be improved (or some of them).
Maybe the balancing (and weapon function) need some changes.

But we should keep the good old laser

Keep your fingers off the laser!!!!one

I am sick and tired of nex/mortar rinse repeat mode. even the laser could be thoroughly modified (mortar is there 4 the same effect at a larger selfdmg cost).

Making these kinds of small changes does not constitute "large changes".

Perhaps we need a separate poll for the laser.

In order to give the "pro players" their definite answer about the community's opinion: I'll ask this here.

I voted no because Xonotic is a fork, not a new game, but if you want the opinions that really count, you should ask the players that picked up Nexuiz but F10'd and never came back. Perhaps a feedback form integrated into the menu may be handy to gauge the things that drive people away and the things that people like. If you ask "pro players", you will almost always get the same old conservative response - "No". I'm not saying the opinions of current players don't count, because these are probably the most important ones, but if you want some fresh ideas you should definitely go out and ask people (friends, colleagues, first time players on servers, etc) what they think.

I am sick and tired of nex/mortar rinse repeat mode. even the laser could be thoroughly modified (mortar is there 4 the same effect at a larger selfdmg cost).

Damn straight.

In order to give the "pro players" their definite answer about the community's opinion: I'll ask this here.

I voted no because Xonotic is a fork, not a new game, but if you want the opinions that really count, you should ask the players that picked up Nexuiz but F10'd and never came back. Perhaps a feedback form integrated into the menu may be handy to gauge the things that drive people away and the things that people like. If you ask "pro players", you will almost always get the same old conservative response - "No". I'm not saying the opinions of current players don't count, because these are probably the most important ones, but if you want some fresh ideas you should definitely go out and ask people (friends, colleagues, first time players on servers, etc) what they think.

I'm sure a good amount of "pro" people are extremely prejudiced about free/opensource gaming, and already have their opinions set before even starting the game...

In my opinion if we change the weapon balance dramatically and also change essential gameplay elements like the laser, then we MIGHT attract new players to the game, but we also risk losing the established player base.

Since the Nexuiz gameplay has evolved gradually ever since Nexuiz 1.0, I feel confident that we can say the relevant developers have gained a certain experience in terms of the typical Nexuiz gameplay, meaning that the developers and also this community have acquired a certain feeling as to what’s good for this kind of gameplay and what’s not.

If we start off with very drastic changes we

1. create a fundamentally different game, which initially was not the intention of the fork as far as I know;
   
2. enter into an area where most of the developers do not have the same level of experience to be able to judge what’s good and what’s not;
   
3. create a whole new gameplay feeling that many of the people that came here from Nexuiz didn't expect, possibly turning down significant parts of the established player base; and
   
4. risk breaking a lot of maps and having to do a lot of testing if maps work right or the gameplay is acceptable on them again, further delaying the first release of Xonotic.
   

FlyingSteel, I know you are very passionate about making Xonotic more mainstream in order to attract new players. But please consider that a lot of the established player base might just particularly like what sets Nexuiz (and, hopefully, Xonotic) apart from the main stream. Sure, new players may be nice too and we could build up a nice community again, but I value the current Xonotic community very much and it is mostly made up by people that somehow like how the Nexuiz gameplay is. I fear that if we change that game to be more attractive to people that like mainstream games, then the Xonotic community will eventually loose very many of its long-term and valuable members. Not because of protest, but simply because the game starts to be less interesting.

^ My thoughts exactly.

Changing the weapons radically is taking a big risk for this first release. I thought extreme changes would only concern XPM, which is after all made for "pro" settings that can be harder to use but have a better balance and act in a more deterministic way.

To be honest, I think you started this thread off all wrong, with using 'Pro' and wording it around that FrutieX.
This is not about Pro settings, it's about making a balanced game and should remove randomness that you could say 'pro' players hate.

I vote yes FOR some changes, my reasons below are:-

Remove random elements that are frustrating, like rockets blowing up in your face when someone hits you with another splash/rocket/mortar weapon, very annoying just because of the insane health damage it does, also lower ping vs higher ping, this happens constantly to me if I have a higher ping (playing with 100 ping on US servers vs someone with 30-60).

Decrease stupid force pushes of most weapons, they do not need to be that strong, just flung around at times again randomly, also contributes to problems of people being in the air a lot some weapons become very useless.

Laser - No vertical height advantage/tacticallness which spoils some TDM game's and map's because people just laser up off a wall or 3, hard to control area's because of it contributes to destroying that element of a FPS game, doesn't do near enough self-damage to help balance this problem which makes it overused and not used tactically.

I have no qualms with keeping the weapon's as long as the above were 'fixed' or changed in someway to remove randomness and balance things more, don't wnt to turn this into the past laser thread, let's keep an open opinion!

Yes we need to change the weapons. Plasmasheep mentioned in the xonotic channel that we have 4 different machine guns and he is right.

<PlasmaSheep> elaboration: plasma machine gun is hlac, rocket machine gun is hagar, bullet machine gun is BOTH RIFLE AND MG.

If we are making a new game why wouldn't we update the weapons? Go play a few games of warsaw. Another game based on the quake 3 engine and see how fun those weapons are.

Cheers!
MintOX

It looks like we all have different opinions on what constitutes a big change - some people suggest weapon mergings, other people suggest modifying the current weapons to something totally different. For instance, I voted no, but I really want weapon mergings. I voted no for making xonotic a totally different game than nexuiz, but perhaps if the question was different I would have voted another way.
Oh, and yes I agree with halogene.

Remove random elements that are frustrating, like rockets blowing up in your face when someone hits you with another splash/rocket/mortar weapon, very annoying just because of the insane health damage it does,

If you shoot a rocket and someone mortars you at the right moment the explosion radius of the mortar will trigger the rocket. It's not random, and I don't see how it could be prevented.

also lower ping vs higher ping, this happens constantly to me if I have a higher ping (playing with 100 ping on US servers vs someone with 30-60).

I haven't felt much of a difference when playing someone with that kind of difference in ping, moreover, if we start to make weapons specifically designed to make people more equal in terms of ping we will not end up with good weapons (because I believe this is not possible).

Decrease stupid force pushes of most weapons, they do not need to be that strong, just flung around at times again randomly, also contributes to problems of people being in the air a lot some weapons become very useless.

We have hitscan weapons for this sort of situation.

Laser - No vertical height advantage/tacticallness which spoils some TDM game's and map's because people just laser up off a wall or 3, hard to control area's because of it contributes to destroying that element of a FPS game, doesn't do near enough self-damage to help balance this problem which makes it overused and not used tactically.

The laser's reload prevent's a player from being too bouncy, and with health/armor capped at 200 three laser bounces will bring them down quite a lot in terms of health - and since they are busy laserwalling they can't shoot you.

Sorry but you say we have hitscan that's not the point!!

That's the reason hitscan is used to much in the first place and a lot of the other weapons are not used as much (electro, hagar, crylink).

Are you lying about the reload time??

I can show you countless youtube video's of someone lasering consistently...

As for the MG, why not make the primary a little more useful for mid distances, at the moment you have to get VERY close to make it effective, why not make it a bit more effective at medium ranges, then just lower the secondary damage that is used for long range, atleast then the primary would become as useful as the secondary and be a good weapon, but the secondary would not be so strong and used as a constant sniper weapon.

That's the reason hitscan is used to much in the first place and a lot of the other weapons are not used as much (electro, hagar, crylink).

The reason I brought up hitscan is because hitscan is ideal for shooting people in mid air.

Are you lying about the reload time??

I can show you countless youtube video's of someone lasering consistently...

Well, okay, reload time is not a good argument. However, a health/armor cap means they can't stack so much and means they can't laser so much. Laser damage doesn't need to be increased because relative to how much health you can have now (200h/200a) it does a lot more damage than it used to (used to be able to have 999h/999a).

As for the MG, why not make the primary a little more useful for mid distances, at the moment you have to get VERY close to make it effective, why not make it a bit more effective at medium ranges, then just lower the secondary damage that is used for long range, atleast then the primary would become as useful as the secondary and be a good weapon, but the secondary would not be so strong and used as a constant sniper weapon.

I agree, MG primary always struck me as quite useless. If secondary damage is lowered, spread can also be lowered and it can be used as a method to get the campers to hide (which it also does now). I would not classify that as a drastic change, though. Looks like we differ on the definition of "drastic".

I am sorry for posting here rather in the other "laser debate topic"

The advantages from a laser jump atm are so intense, that even if i (and many many other players) am at 21 h i will probably laser jump rather than wait certain death from a single mortar/electro/whatever . thus, h/a cap is by no means no argument in favor of not increasing laser selfdmg or smthg .

And frankly, i do understand that laser is unique. It is also perfectly, (and i mean perfectly) fine in DM/KH FFA balance. Just terrible in all others though.

The advantages from a laser jump atm are so intense, that even if i (and many many other players) am at 21 h i will probably laser jump rather than wait certain death from a single mortar/electro/whatever . thus, h/a cap is by no means no argument in favor of not increasing laser selfdmg or smthg .

Yes, it is, because with a health and armor cap you cannot laser jump as much as you could previously (and also, I'm pretty sure that 21 hp+laserjump = <=0 health).

A health cap around 200 HP will do absolutely nothing to counter laser jumping, simply because 200 is above-average HP in Nexuiz. Most people constantly laser around with less for long-ish periods of time.