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*NEW* EASY-TO-USE physics set from experimentation by frutiex and kojn (please read)

#1
Ok, so after testing with tZork last night with the current Xonotic physics and then testing the XPM physics to compare (nexrun to you and I) I was really not pleased, the current physics just didn't feel very nice at all, very hard to control at low speed and turning feels like your sliding at the same time.

VIDEO OF PHYSICS

-> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-c6_OuuHhbA

Edit:- Still tweaking the physics, but there more or less like that in the video, please watch all the way through Smile

------------------------------------------------------------------------
So what were the goals?

Most importantly, to create a physics set that is easy to use by new, current and players from other similar FPS games.

To create a physics set that gives SIMIALR Quakeworld/CPM style-turning ability
To create a physics set that takes out the steep learning curve of strafing and that allows users to bunnyhop just by pressing forward just like in current nexuiz.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
To create a physics set that would be attractive to current players and basically be 'better' then nexuiz's.
To create a physics set that will allow quake (QW,Quake3,Quake4 etc)players to be able to use them.
To create a physics set that would be attractive and east to use for Unreal Tournament (UT99, ut2003,ut2004,UT3 etc) players.

After all, no one has ever done any kind of mix between these two game's and Xonotic should be aiming at a fast-paced FPS target audience..these genre's are the biggest two around which is why I chose these as example's you can add more or suggest more to me Smile

So today I contact Frutiex and I ask him if we can make a easy to use set, something that would be easy for new players to use, exising quake players wouldnt bitch too much about, and something that would allow existing nexuiz players to pick up on.

So we did, and we used dodge also, please watch the demo's below and comment on what you think, we only played with these for 15 minutes or so, but they were really not difficult at all to learn, any nexuiz player shouldn't have a problem with them.

Edit:- It's possible we could reduce the amount of acceleration dodge gives so that it slows it down the initial acceleration a little bit, this would probably help actually, but got to remember dodge would also be used for mid-game combat.

VIDEO OF PHYSICS

-> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-c6_OuuHhbA

You can grab the physics from here:-

<FruitieX> branch name is
<FruitieX> fruitiex/fruitphys in xonotic-data.pk3dir

From latest GIT.

You can grab the demo from here:-

kojn POV -> http://kojn.mkzelda.net/xonoticphysicstest.dem

You'll need the map we used,

can get it here -> http://www.bd131.bplaced.net/maps/ctf-la...t_v1r2.pk3

We also found some quick little trickjumps on this map, you can do lot's of neat things with these physics I am sure, I mean I was just running around a lot, but hopefully it gives an insight into them.

Please give feedback if your seriously in contributing to the game, would like people's views on how they feel with these.
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#2
Why would you make the physics exactly the same as another game..when you can play that other game. I'd rather have an original game then one that just copies everything else. And to call it promode? This kinda makes me worry.
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#3
They are not exactly the same, to gain speed you must use forward and bunnyhop to continue to gain speed same way nexuiz does that was the whole point of them..I never called these promode, frutiex never called these that, if your on about 'Xonotic Pro Mode' then ask FrutieX why he called them that, but they are not these physics they are different.

As for dodge I asked FrutieX to put it on just so I could mess about with it, then he realised you could do some cool doublejumps with it, and we both agreed it gave enough speed to get going as moving off at the start does take a while to gain speed without it, so we decided that it needed to be kept on for these.

I gave reasons why in my post, did you even watch the demo yet or even try them? Because it looks like what is all to common in this community, no one tries and then just presumes..
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#4
So, you want a physics that is easy to use that is a combination of UT, cpm, and nexuiz physics to get a bigger player base because players from those games won't have trouble transitioning to it? I don't know what physics were in the git, but I don't know anyone who complained about 2.5.2 physics. Yes I did watch the demo. Looked pretty cool, but would probably ruin some maps, but I dunno didn't try them. This isn't to you kojn, but what is the point of making a mod that is basically the same as cpm? I really need a good reason or it just seems pointless to me.
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#5
Well to answer your question that's partly correct that these were designed to be a combination, I want Xonotic to gain a bigger playerbase and many of the Quake players (let's use this first for an example) (especially from ESR, but I take a lot of them with a pinch of salt since there trolls Tongue ) always bitched about the ability to turn, they didn't mind about the bunnyhopping but the turning, that's how I always felt about Nexuiz too. That really hurt the playerbase from that group of FPS'ers as they thought it was terrible.

Now the story - why did they bitch?

Because Nexuiz was based on a quake engine and it said it was meant to bring deathmatch back to basics..well being quaker's, the movement (except for the bunnyhopping) quite literally annoyed them combined with the early releases that had the really bad lag and sloppy movement (no Idea if you were around pre 2.0 times agama so i'll explain as if you were not) basically tarred Nexuiz with 'oh it's that game again with the crappy movement, if they movement wasn't to rubbish it'd probably be quite fun to play'.

Now, what playerbase should Xonotic be targeting, surely it is targeting a audience otherwise where are you expecting to get players from, right? That's why I gave UT and Quake series (two of the biggest fast-paced FPS Genre's ever) as examples.

Now those quake player's said that the gameplay..quite a lot of them quite liked some said it has crazy imbalanceness..but the movement, the movement destroyed any thought of playing the game for them, this is why I wanted something that would appeal to them, and as your right in your post..to increase the playerbase.

I am not having a go at you agamalama at all I haven't re-read over this so I may need to edit it, just want to explain my thinking Smile

Now we could argue forever that the movement is good or bad as it currently is, the problem is Nexuiz never really got the player base it deserved.

Ruin some maps.. that is really possible, I don't know until I try some more to be honest so point taken I will try some of the maps like stormkeep, soylent, final_rage, warfare etc out, and post demo's then some of the CTF maps to give a bigger sample size, if your interested you could do the same, if not no problem.

Hope this clear's somethings up for you, but your right..I want to help to increase the playerbase for Xonotic, these physics I think can help do this, if you have any you've been working on I will test and give feedback, so I would appreciate it if you could test and say if you thought they were hard to use, or you don't understand how they work.

Now mod wise I presume you mean nexrun or the nexrun physics, I can talk to you about that on IRC don't want to drag this off-topic heh.
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#6
I wasnt sure when I watched the demo, but I tried them for about 20 minutes and I have to say like them a lot. I only have 2 things negative to say about it.

1st thing, like I said on irc, I don't understand the need for dodging. My opinion might be a bit biased because I hate the idea of having dodging enabled by default to begin with, no matter the physics set, but I played with it nonetheless so that I wouldn't be bashing it for no reason and could explain why.

IMO the physics are fine without it, in fact they're fantastic, on duel maps they're about same speed as nexuiz physics except it has much better turning. With dodging, it is WAY too fast. One thing is for sure, having both dodging and laser at the same time would be ridiculous, people currently whining because of laser ruining nexuiz ctf would have heart attacks with this. I highly doubt laser is going to be removed so it would make more sense to me to disable dodging by default. There would be nothing wrong in having servers with custom settings with dodging and no laser, tho.

2nd thing, about for the physics being easy to use for nexuiz players, I only partly agree because there is one quite big difference; you cannot press both forward and a strafe key while bunnyhopping, you will lose all control. Personally I could live with that, but many nexuiz players would find it very unnatural, I would even say that I see more experienced players moving that way than ones using only strafes. I also think this is the main reason many people never gave nexrun a chance, but that is a different story. Since Xonotic is not Nexuiz and if people can understand that, then I think it could work. Well, my guess is you should probably expect some people to whine about it for a year Wink

So yeah, I think they're great, minus those 2 things, dodging being my only real issue with it.
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#7
Thanks for the postitive critiscm and feedback,

I agree also, with the laser and dodge people would have a heart-attack, but like you say there is no stopping people adding dodge and removing the laser forexample CTF if they wanted too.

Thanks for atleast trying them with dodge enabled even if you dislike it, FrutieX said to me what do I think with it on and I even said I'm probably biased but I like it on, however I do need to test a duel with it on I can imagine it being at times crazyfast like QW/warsow which might not be everyone's cup of tea but I know a lot of the nexuiz players like to go fast.

Also my arguments originally for dodge was that it add's another degree of movement without moving so not just strafing/enables you to dodge out of the way of projectiles, and also that it may allow you to do some really good/cool rampjumps etc.

Basically I personally thought gaining forward speed was a little too slow from the start off without dodge on but I was playing on a hugemap so that probably doesn't help.

Will try some of the duel maps just running around using dodge to gain speed and with it off to see what happens and post some more demo's up on here.

I take your point also about some nexuiz player's use both forward and strafe, I forgot that I do not use that technique and that other's do, so thanks for pointing it out.

Did you find it hard to adjust nifrek?

VIDEO ADDED
Also just thought, it is possible the amount of acceleration that dodge adds could be reduced to slow down the initial start acceleration you get if it was to be kept instead of just removing it, thoughts?
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#8
Test them again in latest GIT, there were quite a few changes since the video was recorded. They are somewhat slower now, and strafing (forward+strafe) has much greater control now :p
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#9
Okay, I've been jumping around for about an hour with the physics (updated ones) and holycrap, this is amazing. I don't even want to go back to nexuiz because I want to play with those physics. Newbies should have no trouble to move and bunnyhop around pretty easily and experienced players will be able to do crazy stuff. Just need to get rid of pressing forward+strafe when bunnyhopping and then you can do anything you ever did in nexuiz and a LOT more.

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#10
Call me elitist, but I'd rather have physics that take time to master instead of having every newbie who discovers holding down the spacebar running on par with the rest of the playerbase. Yes yes... trickjumping, maneuvering around obstacles, etc... That's all well and good, but I'd like to see physics that make you sacrifice something to move quickly, and promote normal "running on the ground" movement for control and precision.

Something like a promode that isn't a mod that nobody bothers to play, in other words...
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#11
I really enjoyed that phys in non CTS gamemodes, but I think the current NR physics is very nice as it does require skill and practise.

Five minutes, and my eyeballs were already trailing ~10m behind me.
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#12
Hm...

These are basical changes, arent they?
I didnt watch the demo but making the laser unnessisary is a hard thing! Without the laser, a lot of the gameplay will change, some maps will may be unplayable (or wont make fun). Undecided

I wouldnt say, these physics are bad... but may making a command in console for activating it? Wink
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#13
(05-22-2010, 05:18 PM)Chryyz Wrote: Call me elitist, but I'd rather have physics that take time to master instead of having every newbie who discovers holding down the spacebar running on par with the rest of the playerbase. Yes yes... trickjumping, maneuvering around obstacles, etc... That's all well and good, but I'd like to see physics that make you sacrifice something to move quickly, and promote normal "running on the ground" movement for control and precision.

Something like a promode that isn't a mod that nobody bothers to play, in other words...

Agreed. I've actually been screwing around with the physics myself and am leaning more towards a QuakeWorld meets Nexuiz 2.4 set of physics minus a few annoyances. Also CTF Lava Giant is freaking HUGE, I'm not saying this should be a realistic game but daaamn! Nobody should be able to cover that much ground that quickly without doing something tricky or rocket-boosting. The current physics I screwed with can be downloaded on the link below.

http://dev.xonotic.org/issues/94
ECKZBAWKZ HUGE LIST OF ACHIEVEMENTS GOES HERE....


Oh wait.
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#14
(05-22-2010, 05:18 PM)Chryyz Wrote: Call me elitist, but I'd rather have physics that take time to master instead of having every newbie who discovers holding down the spacebar running on par with the rest of the playerbase.

Elitist!

Physics that are hard to master go against the idea of making the game as accessible as possible to all groups of players. If you really want that, XPM is there for you. Tongue
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#15
(05-23-2010, 04:03 AM)parasti Wrote:
(05-22-2010, 05:18 PM)Chryyz Wrote: Call me elitist, but I'd rather have physics that take time to master instead of having every newbie who discovers holding down the spacebar running on par with the rest of the playerbase.

Elitist!

Physics that are hard to master go against the idea of making the game as accessible as possible to all groups of players. If you really want that, XPM is there for you. Tongue

There's a difference between making the game "accessible" and making the game "easy". What's the point of playing a game for more than a few days if everything is handed to you on a silver platter? What makes a game fun is having to work to master it. Who would play WoW if endgame raiding were just a "run in and loot" addition to the game world. Who would play a turn based RPG like Final Fantasy if all the monsters and bosses were too weak to oppose you to begin with? Having something to aspire to is NOT a bad thing. By the way, you apparently missed the "that isn't a mod that nobody cares to play" portion of my post. Nexuiz' havoc mode is a prime example of this.
[Image: optsig.png]
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#16
Please also remember that in the video no one is shooting at him etc etc, real gameplay speeds are bound to be slower, it was To Lee, more to showcase what's possible with the physics so yes he can get to the other side of the map realtively quickly, but he did gain speed before he did this, no one's going to be able to run around in circles around there base like that in a proper match and not get him.

Secondly, I never said remove the laser Debugger.. but I am guessing from the video annotations that FrutieX did thats what you mean, I would not want to remove it from the game personally, but it could be disabled when someone has the flag, or for competitive games could be disabled or something, but enough on it or this thread will go way off topic.

Chryyz I see your point, but there will be a lot of trickjumps/ramp and doublejumps that would need some skill to master, the movement will allow people to have 'accessibility' to the game as you called it, but to do some certain jumps I am guessing would require some practice and skill to actually do, just saying the whole point of these is to allow other games to have accesbility to the movement in the game pretty quickly.

Lee I will check those physics out Smile
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#17
(05-23-2010, 03:27 AM)Lee_Stricklin Wrote:
(05-22-2010, 05:18 PM)Chryyz Wrote: Call me elitist, but I'd rather have physics that take time to master instead of having every newbie who discovers holding down the spacebar running on par with the rest of the playerbase. Yes yes... trickjumping, maneuvering around obstacles, etc... That's all well and good, but I'd like to see physics that make you sacrifice something to move quickly, and promote normal "running on the ground" movement for control and precision.

Something like a promode that isn't a mod that nobody bothers to play, in other words...

Agreed. I've actually been screwing around with the physics myself and am leaning more towards a QuakeWorld meets Nexuiz 2.4 set of physics minus a few annoyances. Also CTF Lava Giant is freaking HUGE, I'm not saying this should be a realistic game but daaamn! Nobody should be able to cover that much ground that quickly without doing something tricky or rocket-boosting. The current physics I screwed with can be downloaded on the link below.

http://dev.xonotic.org/issues/94

There's a few files on there... I grabbed the last one and tested it out. All I can see is that it's better to reach 417 on run speed before you start bunny hopping, and there's minimal benefit to turning.
[Image: optsig.png]
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#18
Are these physics going to be affecting the entire game, or just a game-mode on its own? If the entire game is going to be like that, then i'm out of here.

I didn't play Nexuiz for hopping and running fast, I played it to beat the crap out of my enemies by SHOOTING. not running at high speeds and trying not to collide with the map. Until seeing this, I have been very pleased with the direction that Xonotic is taking in development. Surely not every player would want the gameplay to revolve around attempting to get the fastest speeds possible, and doing trick jumps.


If anyone can soothe this angry spirit, please do so now.
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#19
There's plenty of video's of people running around in nexuiz at highspeed..

The actualy acceleration you gain after b-hopping after let's say dodging with forward is probably no more then what it is in nexuiz, although I'd have to double check with frutiex.

The video is there to show what CAN be done with the physics, this being on a very large open map with FrutieX looping around the base when he does get really lots of speed like 3 times with No one shooting him..You can get crazy speed with nexuiz's physics on the same map, the point is, there is noone shooting in the video it's simply to showcase the physics, no one is going to be able to move that quickly with players on the map shooting at them because they will get slowed down, hit, stopped.
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#20
Is there really a need for high speed physics in normal game mode? Honestly, it just ruins ctf games to have people fly across the map to cap before you can even respawn. Why not have a separate mode for the faster physics, and focus the default settings upon shoot and kill?
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#21
If they are really too fast then obviously they will need to be slowed down, so dodge could be remove to do this, the actual acceleration to gain speed just normal hopping I don't believe to be any faster then nexuiz.

Chryyz - "it just ruins ctf games to have people fly across the map to cap before you can even respawn."

Well doesn't laser ruin CTF games then?? I tried to make this point but I got bitched at.

I think it took frutiex 19 seconds to cap on that map..fair enough he could of probably took a few seconds off that time, but thats with no person shooting him or anything, now how long would it take with the laser on the same map on quite a clean-run in an actual game, around 10 seconds I would have a guess at, you can just laser in, then laser out.

You can move absurdly fast with it (laser) much quicker then just using these physics purely and no laser, and you can only use hitscan weapons when people are in the air with the flag in CTF because people are lasering so often.

Try the physics with dodge turned off, you may find there not as fast then but still very maneourvable, it might even make sense to be honest to turn doublejump off..

What I really need to do is actually test these physics vs frutiex in a duel, and then maybe get some people toghether to test in a TDM & CTF games, if they are really too fast then something will need to be done but I guess other people actually need to test them.
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#22
I'm not a big fan of the laser either to be honest... I'd rather maneuver to high areas via trickjumping. On that note... the laser is one of the core functions of Nexuiz... is it necessary to keep it for Xonotic? (Rocket jumping is retarded too >.>) You don't need these things for a "fast paced FPS".
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#23
(05-23-2010, 04:16 AM)Chryyz Wrote:
(05-23-2010, 04:03 AM)parasti Wrote:
(05-22-2010, 05:18 PM)Chryyz Wrote: Call me elitist, but I'd rather have physics that take time to master instead of having every newbie who discovers holding down the spacebar running on par with the rest of the playerbase.

Elitist!

Physics that are hard to master go against the idea of making the game as accessible as possible to all groups of players. If you really want that, XPM is there for you. Tongue

There's a difference between making the game "accessible" and making the game "easy". What's the point of playing a game for more than a few days if everything is handed to you on a silver platter? What makes a game fun is having to work to master it. Who would play WoW if endgame raiding were just a "run in and loot" addition to the game world. Who would play a turn based RPG like Final Fantasy if all the monsters and bosses were too weak to oppose you to begin with? Having something to aspire to is NOT a bad thing. By the way, you apparently missed the "that isn't a mod that nobody cares to play" portion of my post. Nexuiz' havoc mode is a prime example of this.

The goal is combining it all. It should be easy to move in it, yet still there should be way to improve yourself while playing, and it also shouldn't be prone to cheats (like strafebot).
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#24
(05-23-2010, 11:51 AM)jngdwe Wrote: Are these physics going to be affecting the entire game, or just a game-mode on its own? If the entire game is going to be like that, then i'm out of here.

I didn't play Nexuiz for hopping and running fast, I played it to beat the crap out of my enemies by SHOOTING. not running at high speeds and trying not to collide with the map. Until seeing this, I have been very pleased with the direction that Xonotic is taking in development. Surely not every player would want the gameplay to revolve around attempting to get the fastest speeds possible, and doing trick jumps.


If anyone can soothe this angry spirit, please do so now.

I think there are better games to shoot and beat the crap out of the enemy then Nexuiz. A big part of Nexuiz was the movement and how fast paced it was because of this movement. And half the gameplay right now in nexuiz does revolve around movement for dodging and getting to locations faster. Well, maybe not if you play on public servers mostly.
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#25
(05-23-2010, 09:49 AM)Chryyz Wrote:
(05-23-2010, 03:27 AM)Lee_Stricklin Wrote:
(05-22-2010, 05:18 PM)Chryyz Wrote: Call me elitist, but I'd rather have physics that take time to master instead of having every newbie who discovers holding down the spacebar running on par with the rest of the playerbase. Yes yes... trickjumping, maneuvering around obstacles, etc... That's all well and good, but I'd like to see physics that make you sacrifice something to move quickly, and promote normal "running on the ground" movement for control and precision.

Something like a promode that isn't a mod that nobody bothers to play, in other words...

Agreed. I've actually been screwing around with the physics myself and am leaning more towards a QuakeWorld meets Nexuiz 2.4 set of physics minus a few annoyances. Also CTF Lava Giant is freaking HUGE, I'm not saying this should be a realistic game but daaamn! Nobody should be able to cover that much ground that quickly without doing something tricky or rocket-boosting. The current physics I screwed with can be downloaded on the link below.

http://dev.xonotic.org/issues/94

There's a few files on there... I grabbed the last one and tested it out. All I can see is that it's better to reach 417 on run speed before you start bunny hopping, and there's minimal benefit to turning.

FINALLY! Some feedback! I'll tweak them some more and see what I get. Did you check out the weapon balance as well? I know the nex needs a little work, but I think I'm getting something cool. I also need to figure out the armor rot system.
ECKZBAWKZ HUGE LIST OF ACHIEVEMENTS GOES HERE....


Oh wait.
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