[SUGGESTION] Limited weapon slots & customizable spawn weapons

No... I don't want to copy-paste something from a different game for the sake of it.

ok so what are you doing instead eh?

I indeed saw the idea in RE, and the mechanics seemed nice so I considered doing something similar (not identical) in Xonotic as a mutator. This wasn't my only source of inspiration either... I since long had an idea to implement classes similar to Team Fortress 2 for example

...oh. so you are trying to prove that you are not copy/pasting by giving me examples of how you want to copy/paste things.

It wouldn't be too complicated otherwise. I don't intend to change weapon keybinds / numbers, which are hard-coded and indeed a nightmare to rewrite. My idea was simply to add a weapon carrying limit, and a customizable list of spawn weapons for classes. Customizable start weapons should be very easy to do with mutator hooks, while a hook to replace or ignore a pickup weapon once you already carry more than X guns should also be fairly simple.

did you read at all or are aware how weapon balance in xonotic works?

That's just pointless argumentation, Xonotic copies Quake and UT in first place anyway. Deoxys if you dislike the idea of a more casual mode (in this case haivng something with loadouts which QL also is trying out, and have been proven popular in Team Fortress, Xonotic Overkill and in CPMA NTF mode), then please provide any arguments what can be done instead/why we should not try get more people into the game that way. I don't say loudouts is the best route, it's one route, but I'm not against it either as I think the design space have not been fully explored by other games yet.

That's just pointless argumentation

Agreed. Deoxys misunderstood MK's first sentence as "not copy/paste" rather than what I think was intended, "not just for the sake of it". Call it copy/paste if you want, that's just a matter of semantics, and as machine says, that's completely irrelevant when you take a few steps back and see the mutual sharing of concepts between games.

What matters here is whether Xonotic specifically needs this feature. Personally, I think it's fine to take inspiration, but the concept at hand is much too close to the core of the gameplay to make sense as a mutator. Since it would require to call into question balance and perhaps even weapon mechanics, this would put the mod on a similar level to overkill or some hypothetical class-based mod. Hence, I don't think we want that as an official gamemode. Even though people might find it appealing, it just wouldn't be the same game anymore.

don't use that word incorrectly it makes me want to blowtorch your nipples off.

no arguments are pointless, there is always someone right and someone wrong.
we shouldn't try and get people into the game this way because... oh wait i already stated my arguments, machine. up above. read it.
to add on to that, i agree that loadouts are an extra menu screen in a game which already needs a large amount of customization from the start.

the thread is about views on this proposition, not a brainstorm on more casual modes. if you'd like my views on that look elsewhere.

Or some one could take a stab at the vehicle code to improve it as Vehicles + Vanilla weapons is like hookers and blow. They go hand in hand and create fun game play.

interesting idea

ok so what are you doing instead eh?

...oh. so you are trying to prove that you are not copy/pasting by giving me examples of how you want to copy/paste things.

did you read at all or are aware how weapon balance in xonotic works?

You seem to not be capable of telling the difference between outright copying something and being inspired by an idea. Like I said, player classes or customizable weapons are a common mechanic in many games of many genres (including shooters). If thinking of adding a mutator in this regard counts as copy-pasting, I don't want to imagine what having a Capture The Flag gametype or Instagib mutator means

Otherwise I've been with Nexuiz / Xonotic for some 7 years now... I know how weapon balance works thank you. Including the fact that it's customizable, allowing weapons to be balanced for any use and game idea, even if they can't be actually reordered. A mutator like this would indeed need a special balance to make all weapons equal, so players don't grant themselves the best guns which makes the others useless.

you first introduced it as "I saw this in Red Eclipse, and now i'm thinking of putting it in here" and go on to describe how RE does it, which leaves an overwhelming impression that you are taking directly from the game. If you'd like to revise what you meant sure.

Experience is irrelevant in understanding the balance, i could have not played the game before and somebody shows me the balance and i could understand it. So in order to do this, you agree it takes a significant amount of modding to the weapons in order to make this a fair mode.

Too much modding. I've tried. so much that it should practically be it's own mod. the gameplay would be miles apart regardless. If you want to pursue this as a standalone mod/plugin go ahead, but it's a poor choice for a mutator.

checking one box for a mutator and then having to play practically a whole different game? no thanks. makes even less sense to newbies, having to re-learn the whole weapon system.

My point was that you only talk to those people who keep playing the game, and not to those who quit. Hence, your personal experience is not a valid representation of reality when it comes to that.

Though I feel tempted to take this general disqualification of my personal experience as an offense, I believe you're trying to make a rather neutral point here in saying that I cannot fully assess the reception of vanilla gameplay from an objective perspective since I only feed on biased information of those that keep playing. This of course is true, and I'm aware I'm biased also in that respect that I really like vanilla gameplay as it is. This however does not make me resistant to logical argumentation

With that being said, I'm not against making Xonotic more newbie friendly or generating yet another "light" version that can form as an access point to current vanilla gameplay. Just how would "loadouts" be able to fulfill that purpose? (That means limited weapon slots, right?) To me it would add yet another level of complexity to the game, actually.

I don't think Taoki intends to change the core gameplay of Xonotic but to offer it as an option for those who would enjoy such a simplified mode and who otherwise would not play Xonotic at all.

And yes indeed, the "classic" mode needs attention too. Think of things like showing the shots you have left on the HUD instead of plain ammo or having ingame tutorial messages (e.g. you pick up a rocket launcher, text message appear: hold mouse1 to guide the rocket, press mouse2 to detonate it) would greatly help new players to understand the game.

p.s.: If I intended to offend you, would have started with "No offence, but.."

i'm with asyyy, we need to focus much more on easing people into vanilla, especially with the demise of QL - we don't need more spinoff mutators.

Or even better idea, how about bugs get fixed so we can get 1.0 already and start advertising.

Think of things like showing the shots you have left on the HUD instead of plain ammo or having ingame tutorial messages (e.g. you pick up a rocket launcher, text message appear: hold mouse1 to guide the rocket, press mouse2 to detonate it) would greatly help new players to understand the game.

Ingame tutorial messages - that is a very good idea! I will take this to the dev team and see what we can do about this. I think I should be able to generate short explanations what to do, we will, however, have to parse the client's bind setup for displaying the right tips. But that should be possible.

The "shots left" on the HUD would be interesting - but it would have to calculate for both primary and secondary shots - and to be transparent enough also display the remaining ammo so people have the chance to comprehend the calculation behind it and don't dismiss it as arbitrariness. I fear that such a display would end up being way too big and to complex compared to showing plain ammo...

The "shots left" on the HUD would be interesting - but it would have to calculate for both primary and secondary shots - and to be transparent enough also display the remaining ammo so people have the chance to comprehend the calculation behind it and don't dismiss it as arbitrariness. I fear that such a display would end up being way too big and to complex compared to showing plain ammo...

Yes, the ammo system itself needs to be developed further. Maybe one day someone will pick up Samual's work on that and finish it.

Or even better idea, how about bugs get fixed so we can get 1.0 already and start advertising.

there's a hell of a lot more left to do than fix bugs.

the campaign in 0.8 could undergo some heavy brainstorming in the future

Well I think instead of spending extra work on new game play ideas developing more of vanilla/minsta/overkill or vehicles would be better. This is coming from a player side. With those 4 things Xon has quite a few angles covered. Even some more good vehicle maps would be awesome.