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[SUGGESTION] A small addition to the spawn system

#1
I've experimented with bots and it seems like with the current spawn system, in a duel you can in specific cases force the opponent to spawn in a very convenient place for you to spawn kill them(for example in StormKeep, by standing right next to the warpzone from the mega armor side right after a frag. This will force the opponent to spawn on the other side of the warpzone right in front of you, allowing you to set up an electro combo for instance).

I'm not arguing against spawn raping, the problem is that this case for example is repeatable, after you spawn fragged someone in this scenario you can just step back to the mega armor side and repeat the process.

So a simple elegant solution to this, and probably some other cases where this is possible, is to make it so you can't spawn in the same place twice in a row.
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#2
I suppose it comes from the "spawn farthest" rule that was introduced in 0.7. The problem comes from the fact that geometrically, the two places are the farthest from eachother so the rule works perfectly, however it doesn't seem to care about the physically impossible shortcut (and honestly I don't even know how that'd be programmable) the warpzone provides.
So the system works, the problem is with the map itself. That specific spawnpoint has to be removed, or rather, to be moved to place where this spawnraping can't happen.
Interesting find btw.
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"One should strive to achieve; not sit in bitter regret."
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#3
I too assumed that was the reason behind it happening.
Making a change about this specific spawn point may be a solution to the scenario I described, yet I think it'd be more efficient to implement the solution I suggested, as otherwise the same problem could theoretically reoccur in any map involving warpzones (future ones as well).
This would make the mapper's job easier as they wouldn't need to be concerned about placing spawn points near warpzones (Or at least less concerned).

Also, IMO having an opportunity to get one "free frag", when performing the right actions and under specific circumstances is an interesting concept.

In a concern that my suggestion would affect "normal" gameplay, the "no spawning in previous spawn point protection" could only last for a few seconds.
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#4
How do bots navigate warpzones? (or do they?) Maybee we could use bot waypoints to measure distances in some way...
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#5
(06-30-2013, 07:58 AM)aa Wrote: How do bots navigate warpzones? (or do they?) Maybee we could use bot waypoints to measure distances in some way...
They don't. abusing warpzones is how you beat singleplayer Smile

Maybe there should be a rule in duel that a respawning player's proximity to a warpzone must be inversely proportional to the other player's proximity to the other end (within a certian threshold). Also maybe don't respawn a player in the same spot twice if they haven't moved a certain distance away from it before being killed (move to the second furthest spawn).
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#6
Will any solution be taken into consideration by the dev team?
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#7
At least the issue with that one single spawnpoint on Stormkeep will be kept in mind and probably included. Wink
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#8
I've wondered about the same problem on a different occurrence. When you want to locate the origin of a sound on a map with a warpzone, it seems it is not taken into consideration that the space is not euclidean. So the sound of an event does not have to match where you might see it happening. (Stand next to a warpzone, shoot through it, hear the explosion)

Finding a distance however is still theoretically possible, since with warpzones only the map has to be made up of cartesian subspaces. So the distance to a place can still be calculated by selecting the minimum of very few 2-norms. Right? Huh
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#9
The same spawn problem occures on the best-known dueling map called Aerowalk. What about making players spawn in the 50% farest spawn points on the map as it is in quake (as far as I know). Nirgoren is right about forcing player spawn elsewhere every time.
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#10
I wouldnt care too much about warpzones. You should imagine a warpzone like a teleporter you can shoot and see through. It somehow makes sense then that you cant hear stuff that happens on the other side.

As for the spawnkilling:
I am strictly against changing/editing maps only because they offer one place you can spawnkill at. I'd rather see this as a case where the spawnsystem breaks (duel) maps such as stormkeep and aerowalk.

Justin Wrote:Nirgoren is right about forcing player spawn elsewhere every time.
Which would be even better exploitable (even though its more random). You can just spam one spawnpoint, in case of success you directly spam another one.

IMO the best solution would be to decrease the chance of 'spawn furthest' to ~25 or 30 percent. On the one hand it makes sense to let the player spawn farer away, on the other hand there are situations this makes it even easier to spawnkill.
Even though it was somehow stupid when the opponent spawned right in front of you (entirely random spawn), at times it was better than the current spawns.
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#11
(07-03-2013, 03:56 AM)zypresse Wrote: I've wondered about the same problem on a different occurrence. When you want to locate the origin of a sound on a map with a warpzone, it seems it is not taken into consideration that the space is not euclidean. So the sound of an event does not have to match where you might see it happening. (Stand next to a warpzone, shoot through it, hear the explosion)

Finding a distance however is still theoretically possible, since with warpzones only the map has to be made up of cartesian subspaces. So the distance to a place can still be calculated by selecting the minimum of very few 2-norms. Right? Huh

Waypoints suffer from the same issue.

Sound goes through walls, so where do you think the sound should come from if you're standing behind the portal? Where should it come from if you're in front of it? This is a tricky and subtle issue. If you want any realism at all, sould in the game should behave as waves and not be heard through walls.
[Image:http://i.imgur.com/4XODR.png]640K ought to be enough for anybody.
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#12
Quote:I wouldnt care too much about warpzones. You should imagine a warpzone like a teleporter you can shoot and see through. It somehow makes sense then that you cant hear stuff that happens on the other side.

I disagree with that. For warpzones of the stormkeep-type this might be ok. But there are also the kind of warpzones that are not supposed to be noticed as in glowplant.

Quote:Sound goes through walls, so where do you think the sound should come from if you're standing behind the portal? Where should it come from if you're in front of it? This is a tricky and subtle issue. If you want any realism at all, sould in the game should behave as waves and not be heard through walls.

Yes, it is tricky. I can think of 2 alternatives. First would be that an event is only audible through its shortest shortest (that is not a typo Angel) path to the player. That might be easier to implement and also gameplaywise easier to handle. Second alternative is, having a weighted sum over all possible shortest paths, where the distances are the inverse weights of the volumes. (e.g. volume_i*[1-distance_i/sum(distance_1..x)], which is independent of attenuation)
Also i'm fine with sound beams going through walls Smile
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#13
In red=my text:
(07-03-2013, 06:21 AM)Debugger Wrote: I wouldnt care too much about warpzones. You should imagine a warpzone like a teleporter you can shoot and see through. It somehow makes sense then that you cant hear stuff that happens on the other side.

As for the spawnkilling:
I am strictly against changing/editing maps only because they offer one place you can spawnkill at. I'd rather see this as a case where the spawnsystem breaks (duel) maps such as stormkeep and aerowalk.

I agree with you on that point, I think changing the maps to fit the spawn rules is more difficult and has more side effects than changing the spawn rules so that they would fit pretty much any map.


Justin Wrote:Nirgoren is right about forcing player spawn elsewhere every time.
Which would be even better exploitable (even though its more random). You can just spam one spawnpoint, in case of success you directly spam another one.

First of all, it's not more random. If the furthest spawn point from the opponent is where you last spawn before dying, you'll spawn at the second furthest spawn point from his location, no random element to it.
While I could be wrong on this, the chance that there is a place on a given map where both the furthest spawn point and the second furthest spawn point are "spawnfraggable", while letting you return to the said place within a second seems to be slim, definitely slimmer than the chance that there will be a place with only the furthest spawn point "spawnfraggable"(while letting you return to the said place). I really don't see a situation where spawn fragging will become easier due to this change.


IMO the best solution would be to decrease the chance of 'spawn furthest' to ~25 or 30 percent. On the one hand it makes sense to let the player spawn farer away, on the other hand there are situations this makes it even easier to spawnkill.
Even though it was somehow stupid when the opponent spawned right in front of you (entirely random spawn), at times it was better than the current spawns.

I believe inserting a random element to it cannot be a part of creating an ideal spawn system, as there are bound to be at least some unfair moments as a result.
"[Xonotic] now aims to be the best possible open source first person shooter available" - Having logical spawn rules for duel is one step towards this destination Smile
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#14
(07-03-2013, 07:03 AM)zypresse Wrote: Yes, it is tricky. I can think of 2 alternatives. First would be that an event is only audible through its shortest shortest (that is not a typo Angel) path to the player. That might be easier to implement and also gameplaywise easier to handle. Second alternative is, having a weighted sum over all possible shortest paths, where the distances are the inverse weights of the volumes. (e.g. volume_i*[1-distance_i/sum(distance_1..x)], which is independent of attenuation)
Also i'm fine with sound beams going through walls Smile

Imagine this: (scroll down for legend)
Code:
---------------   ---------------
|    Room A   |   |    Room B   |
|             |   |             |
|       |>    |   |      <|     |
|   p   |>    |   |  (p) <|     |
|       |>    |   |      <|     |
| (S)   |>    |   |  S   <|     |
|       |>    |   |      <|     |
|             |   |             |
---------------   ---------------

|>  : portal facing east
p   : player in room A, behind portal
S   : sound source in room B
(p), (S), corresponding position from room to room through portal
the rooms are far apart

Where should the player in room A hear the sound from? Your suggestion would mean that the player should hear the sound from point (S), but that doesn't make any sense.
[Image:http://i.imgur.com/4XODR.png]640K ought to be enough for anybody.
     ― Linux Torvalds
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#15
Code:
---------------   ---------------
|    Room A   |   |    Room B   |
|             |   |             |
|       |>    |   |      <|     |
|   p   |>    |   |  (p) <|     |
|       |>    |   |      <|     |
| (S)   |>    |   |  S   <|     |
|       |>    |   |      <|     |
|             |   |             |
---------------   ---------------

Man you should be mapping. Big GrinBig GrinBig Grin
Best. Layout. Ever.
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#16
Indeed, your example is correct. But since you created the illusion of overlapping spaces in this map, why not go with it?
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#17
Because that example extends far away from the spawn zone. It spans the entire map, and would end up making as much sense as not hearing the sound from the portal's direction when you're facing it but hearing it instead from a far away place (as it's doing right now).
[Image:http://i.imgur.com/4XODR.png]640K ought to be enough for anybody.
     ― Linux Torvalds
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#18
Was aware on Stormkeep that you can force the spawn ever since 0.1 I think it was as I managed to do it vs Grunt a few times by running back through to the armour near the warpzone wall then back through, but couldn't get it to constantly keep repeating. Is it possible to just keep forcing that spawn in an actual game not against bots, would like to see a video of it being done and where you need to stand exactlt, otherwise it's not really a huge issue. Doing it vs bots is one thing but doing it against an opponent whos going to move off the spawn a lot differently is complerely different.

Still, can you post a video of it being done repeatedly vs bots (as in more then 3 times in a row)?
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#19
Quote:Because that example extends far away from the spawn zone. It spans the entire map, and would end up making as much sense as not hearing the sound from the portal's direction when you're facing it but hearing it instead from a far away place (as it's doing right now).

Sorry, I don't understand the message here :/ Is your concern that this situation would be equally (or more) confusing than it is now? If so: Ok Smile

Nonetheless, the redefinition of distance should solve the spawning distance problem, since only absolutes are needed here, right ? Smile
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#20
(07-04-2013, 03:56 AM)kojn^ Wrote: Was aware on Stormkeep that you can force the spawn ever since 0.1 I think it was as I managed to do it vs Grunt a few times by running back through to the armour near the warpzone wall then back through, but couldn't get it to constantly keep repeating. Is it possible to just keep forcing that spawn in an actual game not against bots, would like to see a video of it being done and where you need to stand exactlt, otherwise it's not really a huge issue. Doing it vs bots is one thing but doing it against an opponent whos going to move off the spawn a lot differently is complerely different.

Still, can you post a video of it being done repeatedly vs bots (as in more then 3 times in a row)?

Remember the atn scene in your last movie? He spawned 4 times in a row at the same spawnpoint (where you were even standing next to!)?!

It happenend in a game I played as well lately (WITH 0.7 settings):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A7YCKY_f5Xs

IMO, it should be prohibited that you spawn at the same spawn more than 2 times in a row.
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#21
Your'e right Kojn, tested it with a friend a few times and we couldn't make this happen more than twice in a row(twice was quite common though). Guess I was just lucky with the bot.
I think the current spawn rules don't actually make you spawn at the furthest point from your opponent, just at a random far point.

Still, I'd like to know what do people think about theoretically implementing a spawn system that has no random elements to it, yet with an algorithm that is good enough to not allow unfair moments.

Edit: After seeing Mirio's vid I'm really not sure what is going on with the spawn system, but I think we can all agree it could be improved...
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#22
(07-04-2013, 04:37 AM)zypresse Wrote:
Quote:Because that example extends far away from the spawn zone. It spans the entire map, and would end up making as much sense as not hearing the sound from the portal's direction when you're facing it but hearing it instead from a far away place (as it's doing right now).

Sorry, I don't understand the message here :/ Is your concern that this situation would be equally (or more) confusing than it is now? If so: Ok Smile

Nonetheless, the redefinition of distance should solve the spawning distance problem, since only absolutes are needed here, right ? Smile

Take the same example that I gave above, but place the player and mapped sound source much further away from the warp zone. Using your metric, the distance between player and sound source could be close to zero while still being very far away from the portal. The presence of a single warp zone would have such effects across the entire map.
[Image:http://i.imgur.com/4XODR.png]640K ought to be enough for anybody.
     ― Linux Torvalds
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#23
Ah, I see. The distance to the mapped origin of the sound could indeed be zero, but for the attenuation the correct distance is still from player to warpzone to original sound source. Translated into geometry this means that the mapped sound source moves further away from the player. Everything so far was meant to be independent of attenuation. Sorry for my confusion.
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#24
No. From your suggested way of computing distances, the sound origin is mapped next to the player, so there is virtually no attenuation in the case I illustrated.
[Image:http://i.imgur.com/4XODR.png]640K ought to be enough for anybody.
     ― Linux Torvalds
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#25
I justed explained the exact opposite. But ok, I don't want to force anybody to like the idea Wink Also, this goes beyond the spawning issue.
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