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Xonotic's Direction? What do we have to do Learning from nexuiz's mistakes.

#26
(05-30-2010, 01:20 PM)Cortez666 Wrote: again reducing the nex damage? the nex is already quiet useless and reducing the damage even more. Now you need 2-3 hits to take a flagcarrier down, sometimes even more

It could have like 90 damage at closer than 1200 qu (or more?), gradually fading to 60 after that
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#27
(05-30-2010, 12:43 PM)FruitieX Wrote: Laser => tazer, else it's too similar to other projectile weapons. Maybe still allowing _SMALL_ "tazerjumps" . The laser allowed for too easy jumps with almost no cost, which ruins any sense of heights. See a megahealth on a platform 4 floors above? No problem, just laserjump there and snatch it from the player who's just walking towards it normally. >_< Nope, there needs to be a penalty for this, ie. being hurt a bit by a rocket (yeah, you SHOULDN'T even be able to jump like that if you aren't stacked up from before. Anyone heard about strategy?)

small "tazerjumps" sounds good. Maybe also add amunition for the laser, so as a starting weapon you could only do a few jumps, but with collecting amunition additional.

(05-30-2010, 12:43 PM)FruitieX Wrote: Shotgun => Slower refire, more bullets, more spread (gaussian spread now that we can? realism! ) and more damage. It's a shotgun, not a rapid fire semi-automatic rifle with huge spread x)

Agree! A shotgun which feels like a shotgun (with a suiting sound-effect), but with high spread as a short distance weapon. In terms of secondary fire id suggest manual reloading.

(05-30-2010, 12:43 PM)FruitieX Wrote: Uzi => Less force anyone? IIRC that used to be just *slightly* too much.

Agree

(05-30-2010, 12:43 PM)FruitieX Wrote: Mortar => Grenadelauncher? Make it's range MUCH shorter (especially secondary, it should only be useful at spamming close quarters. (heck even that, it never was!) Spam some nades around a corner or so). Maybe in order to decrease similarity to other weapons we could make the primary also fire a grenade, with a different timer?

I like the idea of the secondary fire. However I would keep the primary fire as it is, and just reduce force and dmg.

(05-30-2010, 12:43 PM)FruitieX Wrote: Electro => ?!?... It's badly flawed at the moment, due to it's similarity to the rocketlauncher. It's pretty much only useful if combined with the secondary, by first shooting a couple of blobs against a target area and then shooting a primary immediately after. What about we make the primary a lightning gun similar to Q3, but maybe with the ability to charge up secondary blobs around the area it hits so they will explode with a bigger radius and more damage?

The primary fire is pretty needless (just a faster modification of RL). A type of lighting gun sounds good to me.

(05-30-2010, 12:43 PM)FruitieX Wrote: Crylink => This one's a bit hard... Maybe we could increase both it's pull and it's radius to make it more useful?

How about a defensive weapon. Primary fire positions a shield in front of you (for a couple of seconds) which blocks a certain amount of damage, and eventually is destroyed. Secondary fire creates a shield at the end of the crylink, which can reflect a bullet, rocket, nex-beam etc. but only lives like a 1/4 second and needs quite a lot of ammo. A reflected hitscan weapon would hit the attacker, however only with a part of the initial damage.

(05-30-2010, 12:43 PM)FruitieX Wrote: Nex => I agree with reducing the damage and force at long distances, but just slightly (1/3x or so? nothing more extreme) It will still remain useful where it's needed, defending your base from immediate attackers. It'll reduce the effect of camping though. Distance needs tweaking.

Yes, decrease force and dmg.

(05-30-2010, 12:43 PM)FruitieX Wrote: Hagar => Less spread and more projectile speed should fix it. Not sure about bounce on secondary, it's a bit similar to the crylink now isn't it?

Agree with primary fire. Maybe let the projectiles of the secondary fire just bounce more often, however detonating after a few seconds automatically.

(05-30-2010, 12:43 PM)FruitieX Wrote: ocketlauncher => Remove remote detonating as I've stated above, same reason as Unknown said: It's very very hard to dodge a rocket shot by a skilled player (if it misses slightly he just needs to hit secondary). Just to give secondary a use now, maybe it could be the button that starts the guiding of a rocket, so that you can shoot multiple rockets with primary, then guide them all at once by pressing secondary? (another primary after that would cancel guiding for previous rockets) Could get interesting
Also give rockets infinite health to remove the (RANDOM! ANNOYING!) explosion right in front of your own face if someone else fires another projectile at you!

Agree. Remove detonating, add infinite health to the rocket. Imo enhance speed, ability to guide the rocket and reduce force and radius. No idea what to do with secondary though.


At last i think all the new weapons are pretty useless for a first release and dont have a positive impact on gameplay. Moreover id remove damage through walls, as it only promotes spamming and destroys tactical features of maps.
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#28
(05-30-2010, 12:43 PM)FruitieX Wrote: Again, agree with a health/armor limit. Limiting to 200/200, with only shards (5 hp/armor) and powerups (100 hp/armor) being able to be picked up after 100/100.

Exactly what I mean, a health system isn't about originality/limitless it helps balance the game, something like this can be easily implemented and we already have a good starting point. IF you really want to be original in the health systems there are a TON of other ways to do it besides going against everything that has built the shooter industry.

(05-30-2010, 12:43 PM)FruitieX Wrote: Laser => tazer, else it's too similar to other projectile weapons. Maybe still allowing _SMALL_ "tazerjumps" Wink. The laser allowed for too easy jumps with almost no cost, which ruins any sense of heights. See a megahealth on a platform 4 floors above? No problem, just laserjump there and snatch it from the player who's just walking towards it normally. >_< Nope, there needs to be a penalty for this, ie. being hurt a bit by a rocket (yeah, you SHOULDN'T even be able to jump like that if you aren't stacked up from before. Anyone heard about strategy?)

Shotgun => Slower refire, more bullets, more spread (gaussian spread now that we can? realism! Big Grin) and more damage. It's a shotgun, not a rapid fire semi-automatic rifle with huge spread x)

Uzi => Less force anyone? IIRC that used to be just *slightly* too much.

Mortar => Grenadelauncher? Make it's range MUCH shorter (especially secondary, it should only be useful at spamming close quarters. (heck even that, it never was!) Spam some nades around a corner or so). Maybe in order to decrease similarity to other weapons we could make the primary also fire a grenade, with a different timer?

Electro => ?!?... It's badly flawed at the moment, due to it's similarity to the rocketlauncher. It's pretty much only useful if combined with the secondary, by first shooting a couple of blobs against a target area and then shooting a primary immediately after. What about we make the primary a lightning gun similar to Q3, but maybe with the ability to charge up secondary blobs around the area it hits so they will explode with a bigger radius and more damage?

Crylink => This one's a bit hard... Maybe we could increase both it's pull and it's radius to make it more useful?

Nex => I agree with reducing the damage and force at long distances, but just slightly (1/3x or so? nothing more extreme) It will still remain useful where it's needed, defending your base from immediate attackers. It'll reduce the effect of camping though. Distance needs tweaking.

Hagar => Less spread and more projectile speed should fix it. Not sure about bounce on secondary, it's a bit similar to the crylink now isn't it?

Rocketlauncher => Remove remote detonating as I've stated above, same reason as Unknown said: It's very very hard to dodge a rocket shot by a skilled player (if it misses slightly he just needs to hit secondary). Just to give secondary a use now, maybe it could be the button that starts the guiding of a rocket, so that you can shoot multiple rockets with primary, then guide them all at once by pressing secondary? (another primary after that would cancel guiding for previous rockets) Could get interesting Smile
Also give rockets infinite health to remove the (RANDOM! ANNOYING!) explosion right in front of your own face if someone else fires another projectile at you!

Other weapons => garbage can IMO Wink They can be added later if really needed, now we really need to focus on a GOOD BALANCE for the initial release, as has been stated above in this thread, it will be the first impression that makes this fork a hit or miss. So we should disable them for now and really tweak, tweak and yet more tweak the 9 first weapons.

Also btw on the news matter, there are problems with the news page that have caused that nobody can write any news! -z- is fixing this at the moment, and we should hopefully be seeing some news articles being written by developers soon! (I sure hope they will do that too, actively to inform everone who doesn't read git log Smile)

Hmm, MG for starting weapon? Could make it a bit weaker, and then instead make the shotgun a REAL badass shotgun, not some plastic toy-gun Tongue

First off, using MG or another weapon besides shotgun as a starting weapon is a very good idea, MG has certain advantages the shotgun will never be able to beat, range being one thing and it's easy to balance out not too strong/weak at all ranges, SG is usually very strong at close range and too weak or even strong at medium range. Current 2.5.2. balance shows that flaw off very fast. New ways to get a better start weapon can also be found, dual wield would just be one example.

I wholeheartedly agree about the tazer thing, laser is just plain wrong, basically the mini-rocketlauncher of the game. The same goes for the shotgun, adding gaussian spread and slowing down the refire is how it should be and how it feels right, all shotguns are slow firing.

Mortar should have a lower range, secondary first and foremost, it should be a tactical weapon as for primary it would do well with somewhat slower speeds and therefore range. Either way the weapon has a lot of options, sticky nades, timer nades, trigger nades etc. The current version is just imba and by far too overpowered for a grenade launcher.

Electro is a good idea, the current version is just too unusable, having it turned into an LG + chargeable blobs would make the weapon unique.

Crylink also has other options, negative push is bad on any weapon, it just feels weird. It could fire off more projectiles at once, a sane speed, slowdown for each, bouncing and when they reach 0 speed they will explode. This will make the primary a very very powerful choice in close quarter battles. Secondary could be tweaked, again there are a lot of options, bouncing machinegun, chargeable shots, we just need to make up our minds on one of them, the crylink is a perfect example on where nexuiz balance failed, all weapons try to be usable at all ranges, this itself is a wrong concept, each weapon should have it's own use.

Nex I disagree at reducing damage and push based on range, it is a perfect weapon for long range sniping. Adding the complexity of range dependent damage is too much, it's just like the projectile physics in nexuiz, while physically correct it adds an unneeded layer of complexity and it just feels weird for a game like this. I agree damage should be tweaked depending on the health system, it should not be a instakill weapon, but it should be able to take out stacked players in 3-4 shots at long range.

Hagar - NO spread, faster projectiles also make projetiles and trail more visible, flare on model like how I made the rockets in Nexuiz is just one idea, also the red trail was again perfect. The problem with the weapon was not the projectile speed itself, it also shows why newtonian projectile physics fail, the speeds of each projectile depends on how you move, they can be faster or just slower making them hard to aim. One example is the plasmagun in quake 3, all projectiles are the same speed and while at first it is quite hard to aim the thing, in time you get used to it and you can predict where and when the projectiles hit, prediction kicks in and you got yourself a usable weapon. The newtonian projectile physics was added because of maps like greatwall, stop playing those they suck.

Rocket launcher - Good idea about the secondary, i like it, it could also be used to fire off a guided rocket, that just goes wherever your cursor is. Primary should be able to do auto refire, also 1000 speed is a good idea and no newtonian physics, NOTHING should use that.

Other weapons can be tweaked, CR is one of them I like, good idea on the headshot and all, just remove reloading and make secondary zoom. HLAC can also have it's uses, but it just needs some tweaking, currently the projectiles are just too fast and annoying, having quite a big splash and damage. OFC the weapon can be rethought of to not be the same as hagar, it could become a superweapon, one that spawns once every 30 - 60 secs and is really really powerfull and limited(fast firing rockets anyone, 10-20 shots and you're out, lotsa damage), the same goes for the Fireball.
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#29
Decreasing the damage of the nex over distances is a bad idea. The nex is the only weapon that has any power over long distances. It is the only counter to a fc that is much better and much quicker than you. You remove its superiority over distance, you ensure that people won't even bother attacking fcs anymore when they are much faster.

Removing detonation is a terrible idea. It is really damn frustrating when the rocket could not make a turn sharply enough to hit an opponent. Removing curvy rockets is a better solution.

In teamplay games, there should not be teamdamage or mirror damage. In fact, projectiles (and yourself) should go through teammates, I think.
(07-18-2010, 10:59 AM)Flying Steel Wrote: How could anyone with ADHD tell its a high damage weapon if it wasn't a gigantic metal cock fucking the map whenever a player gets within 3 meters of a wall?

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#30
I know I'm ignoring a ton of discussion with this post, but...

It needs to be perfect. This is impossible, so it needs to be as close to perfect as possible. Everything needs to be smoothed out. I was looking at the screenshots on the main page and I got a sense of order and sophistication that wasn't present in Nexuiz(which was, at best, unorganized). I can see this being fixed as we speak, but the project needs to be completely organized in the end. If that means taking other users maps and re-skinning them to the style of Xonotic then good. Even the music style needs to be perfectly in sync. The selling point for any commercial game is it's very distinct unity and organization. Games that lack this have few sales. Making random changes WILL NOT solve the issue. First a beta with a GOOD bug/complaint(yes complaint) tracking system will be needed. Find the complaints that stand out the most and fix them. If 300 people complain about and underpowered nex, then the nex needs to have a boost. This will be most effective in the long run. Before every release, a compiled and downloadable beta(similar to a full release) needs to be released and the problems fixed. This will guarantee a high quality game with a large user base.
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#31
Hello I am new of the forum, but I played sometime to Nexuiz.

This thread is becoming too long to read. Moreover the forum theme and the great number of other text and icons around the body of each message makes me hard to concentrate while reading.

About Nexuiz and its problems I have to say some things.

  1. Lag - Under many conditions and systems Nexuiz gives lot of problems with lag. Particularly Mac suffer of this problem but I experienced it also on many PCs. Frame Rate is bound to server response and this is bad.
  2. Rocket Launcher - RL does not have enough radial power. Take for example Unreal Tournament. In UT, RL cause radial damage. In Nexuiz radial damage radius is very short. Player has to be very precise and foresee target movements to fire rocket in the more convenient place. With lag problems this can become impossible and can nullify the utility of RL. In UT, RL causes more damage if you fire it against a wall that is near to your target or in a really little room populated by some enemies. In Nexuiz this does not happen (or has really little effect). Nexuiz RL features force the player to use it as a precision weapon, while a RL should not be used as a precision weapon.
  3. Rocket Launcher strategy - The ability to detonate rockets can be a special Nexuiz feature, though it narrow the possible strategies to dodge a rocket. In UT, for example, the technique is to jump when enemy fires and shut him while floating. In Nexuiz, to dodge possible detonation, you must use laser to jump high enough. Doing such thing is not accessible to all players for a number of reasons.
  4. Nex Gun - Player should be too precise, particularly if there is some lag it become almost impossible to use it. I take UT again as an example because Nexuiz weapons are very similar to UT weapons. In UT, the sniper weapon permits a little less precision.
  5. Up stairs - I totally agree that stairs movements sucks. I often have problems with that. If it is not possible to fix that, to replace stairs with ramps would be better.
  6. Bad multicore/multiCPU support - While there is an option for multiprocessing in Nexuiz, under Mac it is better to disable it. I have 2 CPUs with 4 cores each.

Now I don't remember if I have other things to say, tough these seem enough, for now.

Thank you all.
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#32
(05-30-2010, 08:17 PM)Roanoke Wrote: Decreasing the damage of the nex over distances is a bad idea. The nex is the only weapon that has any power over long distances. It is the only counter to a fc that is much better and much quicker than you. You remove its superiority over distance, you ensure that people won't even bother attacking fcs anymore when they are much faster.

Removing detonation is a terrible idea. It is really damn frustrating when the rocket could not make a turn sharply enough to hit an opponent. Removing curvy rockets is a better solution.

In teamplay games, there should not be teamdamage or mirror damage. In fact, projectiles (and yourself) should go through teammates, I think.

About the rockets, if detonation isn't removed then we will be back at the same point, rockets almost impossible to evade(improvement from totally impossible) at medium ranges. We should have teamdamage in TDM, but not in any other game mode, unless it's specifically designed for such, mirror damage is the worst idea ever concieved. I dissagree about going through teammates tough, it's just well weird Tongue

(05-30-2010, 09:57 PM)master[mind] Wrote: I know I'm ignoring a ton of discussion with this post, but...

It needs to be perfect. This is impossible, so it needs to be as close to perfect as possible. Everything needs to be smoothed out. I was looking at the screenshots on the main page and I got a sense of order and sophistication that wasn't present in Nexuiz(which was, at best, unorganized). I can see this being fixed as we speak, but the project needs to be completely organized in the end. If that means taking other users maps and re-skinning them to the style of Xonotic then good. Even the music style needs to be perfectly in sync. The selling point for any commercial game is it's very distinct unity and organization. Games that lack this have few sales. Making random changes WILL NOT solve the issue. First a beta with a GOOD bug/complaint(yes complaint) tracking system will be needed. Find the complaints that stand out the most and fix them. If 300 people complain about and underpowered nex, then the nex needs to have a boost. This will be most effective in the long run. Before every release, a compiled and downloadable beta(similar to a full release) needs to be released and the problems fixed. This will guarantee a high quality game with a large user base.

Nobody here is suggesting random changes, they are very very big annoyances from nexuiz, they were mistakes that after a while of playing you end up noticing, they are suggestions based on experience from well very advanced players, the main idea behind these suggestion is to remove randomness factors and balance the game out.

(05-31-2010, 12:38 AM)Ender Wrote: Hello I am new of the forum, but I played sometime to Nexuiz.

This thread is becoming too long to read. Moreover the forum theme and the great number of other text and icons around the body of each message makes me hard to concentrate while reading.

About Nexuiz and its problems I have to say some things.

  1. Lag - Under many conditions and systems Nexuiz gives lot of problems with lag. Particularly Mac suffer of this problem but I experienced it also on many PCs. Frame Rate is bound to server response and this is bad.
  2. Rocket Launcher - RL does not have enough radial power. Take for example Unreal Tournament. In UT, RL cause radial damage. In Nexuiz radial damage radius is very short. Player has to be very precise and foresee target movements to fire rocket in the more convenient place. With lag problems this can become impossible and can nullify the utility of RL. In UT, RL causes more damage if you fire it against a wall that is near to your target or in a really little room populated by some enemies. In Nexuiz this does not happen (or has really little effect). Nexuiz RL features force the player to use it as a precision weapon, while a RL should not be used as a precision weapon.
  3. Rocket Launcher strategy - The ability to detonate rockets can be a special Nexuiz feature, though it narrow the possible strategies to dodge a rocket. In UT, for example, the technique is to jump when enemy fires and shut him while floating. In Nexuiz, to dodge possible detonation, you must use laser to jump high enough. Doing such thing is not accessible to all players for a number of reasons.
  4. Nex Gun - Player should be too precise, particularly if there is some lag it become almost impossible to use it. I take UT again as an example because Nexuiz weapons are very similar to UT weapons. In UT, the sniper weapon permits a little less precision.
  5. Up stairs - I totally agree that stairs movements sucks. I often have problems with that. If it is not possible to fix that, to replace stairs with ramps would be better.
  6. Bad multicore/multiCPU support - While there is an option for multiprocessing in Nexuiz, under Mac it is better to disable it. I have 2 CPUs with 4 cores each.

Now I don't remember if I have other things to say, tough these seem enough, for now.

Thank you all.

  1. Lag is usually more related to your position to the server, sure under some weird parts the game lags, however it can usually be fixed by playing on a server from your own continent.
  2. RL can't hit, sure it can't on 200 ping, it's quite usable on 150 and very much deadly on 100 ping, it also has a lot of explosion radius and can gain speed.
  3. Bad idea, imo.
  4. Nex is antilagged, it works reasonably well tough at 200 ping it's about the only usable weapon, again you should find servers with lower ping, all games perform poorly on high pings.
  5. ALREADY FIXED in the SVN/Git versions of nexuiz, it will be fixed in Xonotic. The reason people still have problems with it is because there are no svn servers. Seriously now a 2.5.3. last release should fix all of these problems, just get it out. It's not as if development of Nexuiz has completely stopped, it just lacks a team.
  6. I wish something would improve perfomance in this game, just once Tongue
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#33
(05-31-2010, 02:00 AM)unknownnf Wrote:
  1. Lag is usually more related to your position to the server, sure under some weird parts the game lags, however it can usually be fixed by playing on a server from your own continent.
  2. RL can't hit, sure it can't on 200 ping, it's quite usable on 150 and very much deadly on 100 ping, it also has a lot of explosion radius and can gain speed.
  3. Bad idea, imo.
  4. Nex is antilagged, it works reasonably well tough at 200 ping it's about the only usable weapon, again you should find servers with lower ping, all games perform poorly on high pings.
  5. ALREADY FIXED in the SVN/Git versions of nexuiz, it will be fixed in Xonotic. The reason people still have problems with it is because there are no svn servers. Seriously now a 2.5.3. last release should fix all of these problems, just get it out. It's not as if development of Nexuiz has completely stopped, it just lacks a team.
  6. I wish something would improve perfomance in this game, just once Tongue

  1. All the servers I usually play are in my continent (Europe). Even if it is hard to find a closer server if the total world players are 20-30 when I connect. I did already talk within Nexuiz forum about the lag problem. I think that there is something to do about client and client/server code.
  2. This is not my experience. Over 150 ping I can play, but I become a target dummy. Explosion radius probably is nullified by lag.
  3. I did not propose anything. So, what is bad?
  4. Nex does not work well at 200 ping, since I see the enemy in a position, while he is already in another (far) position (probably you/we could balance this problem reducing players jump/run speed). Nex require precise shut, but I cannot shut precisely if I am targeting the air where I see an enemy.
  5. Good. About Nexuiz lacking a team I already know this story. Though, I think they lack a team because they are not good with public relations (if someone tells you that something is not good, try to listen him, do not call him "dumb Mac User" or anything like that).
  6. ?... though for me multiprocessing is not a required feature. In my opinion it could be abandoned and developers can concentrate on something else.
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#34
i want pink pogo-sticks....

No, ignore that, i want to say this: the discussion is going more and more in-depth and you're getting caught up in details. Ask yourself:
1. Who do you want to attract?
2. Why?
3. What will attract them?

These questions may seem silly, but sometimes i get the feeling that some of you talk about newb settings while others talk about pro settings and take for granted that everyone means the same.

i like it when i can choose between servers with different settings. The defaults should be newb-friendly, while pro-server admins should take care of their configs.

Ah, screw that! i once attempted becoming pro and only came to realize that by increasing my skill level the game becomes automatic. What for? We're not producing anything! It's supposed to be fun.

You need to change your attitude.
It's not the duty of the game to bring fun to you. YOU should bring the fun to the game! Play rarely, play weird. Change your settings randomly, like, play upside-down, switch to 3rd-person-view, etcetera.

Oh, i have another crazy idea:
Why not let the client control the settings? Player speed/friction, weapon damage, refire ....


Many of the issues mentioned in this thread have already been addressed, but didn't get attention and couldn't be noticed, because of the "ill incident". Some of you are on IRC regularly, while others only visit the forums. When you criticize settings, say which version you mean, where the settings take effect, on what servers. There's no sense in bashing the latest release when you only play on one outdated server.

EDIT: Hey, you, pro-players. You're in too deep, you shouldn't be commenting at all! (i'm weird, i shouldn't be commenting, either)
Your suggestions would make the game elite.
4m038105 - Be the change.
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#35
I find the mid-air detonation feature of the rocket launcher very special and useful. I'd vote for keeping that feature.
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#36
No one's mentioned about ammo capping?

At the moment you can just run around stacking ammo so you don't really need to think as much about ammo consumption or using other weapons.

Also I like the idea of this tazer..
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#37
(05-31-2010, 06:53 AM)The mysterious Mr. 4m Wrote: Many of the issues mentioned in this thread have already been addressed, but didn't get attention and couldn't be noticed, because of the "ill incident". Some of you are on IRC regularly, while others only visit the forums.

It is normal. The best way to track issues is a devel track system (like track, where you can define a roadmap, report bugs, etc) or a wiki. If you do not want to use forum as the main place where to collect game play or development suggestions, do not create threads where you start discussions about these arguments.

(05-31-2010, 06:53 AM)The mysterious Mr. 4m Wrote: When you criticize settings, say which version you mean, where the settings take effect, on what servers. There's no sense in bashing the latest release when you only play on one outdated server.

It is hard to remember the things you request for a normal player. Not all players are pro, and the most part of them, simply launch the game, choose the first available server and play. A friend of mine is one who can be considered a proficient player, but he hardly remember what version of the game he is currently using.
Though, you can assume that such players are simply using the latest stable version, since they simply download it when available from the main download link.

Though, in my case, almost all the things I said are valid for every version and server. Mac optimization, for example, lacks in all of them.

One of the points of this discussion was how to attract more players. Since you need new players, you need to make the game more approachable for newbies. So, temporary, give lower priority to pro features.
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#38
(05-31-2010, 08:42 AM)kojn^ Wrote: No one's mentioned about ammo capping?

At the moment you can just run around stacking ammo so you don't really need to think as much about ammo consumption or using other weapons.

Also I like the idea of this tazer..

The lack of capping has always made Nexuiz unique and it should stay in Xonotic. The rotting on armor and health in addition to pissed off opponents are already discourage camping and if you don't loot enemies and navigate the map you will eventually run out of ammo.
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#39
Yea that is a valid point I know it's unique to nexuiz, I wouldn't say it made nexuiz unique..I think the regenerating health made Nexuiz unique personally and most people like/liked that feature because of how it worked and takes a little while to kick in you still need to go grab health too.

I never heard anyone complain about it, and even gamer's who dislike nexuiz and the one's who actually mentioned it thought it was quite a neat idea.

However I'm not sure if I'm for or against ammo capping at the moment I was just bringing it up for discussion to see what people thought about it, my main reason being because when I tried tZork's weapon settings out he had capped limits.

You mention if you don't navigate the map you will eventually run out of ammo, well for example in duel/tdm for sure this is what makes the game-mode's all that bit better, you actually need to move to get stuff not just stay in one place because you have stacled loads of ammo, that actually promotes camping if your not moving to get ammo because you have like 100+ rocket ammo Smile
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#40
Which is why I threw the word "eventually" (official release date for StarCraft Ghost actually no joke) in there. Though it would still be hard to camp given the weapon balance and the speed of the game. Someone camping would eventually get shot by a nex beam and then catch a nade to the face by somebody who bunny hops past them fragging them and taking away any chance they had at chewing through all their ammo.
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#41
I don't think ammo capping is necessary, I haven't seen it being a problem. Health is usually one's limiting factor, not ammo.
(07-18-2010, 10:59 AM)Flying Steel Wrote: How could anyone with ADHD tell its a high damage weapon if it wasn't a gigantic metal cock fucking the map whenever a player gets within 3 meters of a wall?

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#42
(05-31-2010, 03:02 PM)Roanoke Wrote: I don't think ammo capping is necessary, I haven't seen it being a problem. Health is usually one's limiting factor, not ammo.

I disagree. Someone stacks 999 rockets or 999 cells and just goes to town if they pick up the quad/shield.
Hey, want to learn to map? You might want to start here and here!
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#43
Ammo capping would be a good feature. Some servers used to enable it especially for the RL but some players complain about it.

P.S. I posted a message to this thread... where are Mac developers?
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#44
(05-31-2010, 03:02 PM)Roanoke Wrote: I don't think ammo capping is necessary, I haven't seen it being a problem. Health is usually one's limiting factor, not ammo.

Some of my duel matches (especially on Final_Rage), I manage to easily get over 300 rocket ammo against my opponents when I am thinking properly, then I can just really start to press my game as I never need to go for rocket ammo again for atleast another 5 minutes.
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#45
(05-31-2010, 06:38 PM)kojn^ Wrote: Some of my duel matches (especially on Final_Rage), I manage to easily get over 300 rocket ammo against my opponents when I am thinking properly, then I can just really start to press my game as I never need to go for rocket ammo again for atleast another 5 minutes.

That isn't much of a deciding factor to anything IMO, you still have to move around for hp/armor, does not matter much if you have a lot of ammo or low, you'll always be picking up more along the way even if there's no need (ammo boxes along the way + weapons you pick up while controlling the map). Even if there was ammo cap, it would still not make much of a difference unless the cap was very low. ie: capping rockets to 100 is still plenty of rockets. So IMO ammo cap can be set without much effect on gameplay, if only to be more consistent with hp and armor being capped.
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#46
(05-31-2010, 02:00 AM)unknownnf Wrote:
(05-30-2010, 09:57 PM)master[mind] Wrote: I know I'm ignoring a ton of discussion with this post, but...

It needs to be perfect. This is impossible, so it needs to be as close to perfect as possible. Everything needs to be smoothed out. I was looking at the screenshots on the main page and I got a sense of order and sophistication that wasn't present in Nexuiz(which was, at best, unorganized). I can see this being fixed as we speak, but the project needs to be completely organized in the end. If that means taking other users maps and re-skinning them to the style of Xonotic then good. Even the music style needs to be perfectly in sync. The selling point for any commercial game is it's very distinct unity and organization. Games that lack this have few sales. Making random changes WILL NOT solve the issue. First a beta with a GOOD bug/complaint(yes complaint) tracking system will be needed. Find the complaints that stand out the most and fix them. If 300 people complain about and underpowered nex, then the nex needs to have a boost. This will be most effective in the long run. Before every release, a compiled and downloadable beta(similar to a full release) needs to be released and the problems fixed. This will guarantee a high quality game with a large user base.

Nobody here is suggesting random changes, they are very very big annoyances from nexuiz, they were mistakes that after a while of playing you end up noticing, they are suggestions based on experience from well very advanced players, the main idea behind these suggestion is to remove randomness factors and balance the game out.

Ahhh...and neither am I. You missed the point of my statement so let me sum it up:
Xonotic should be for everyone.
I was stating exactly what your last sentence said, make all changes be organized. This project needs to be organized. Emphasis on the ORGANIZE. Only then will it appeal to almost all audiences. Is this clearer?
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#47
Ammo cap would not matter IMO, it's something that will just happen once you get health/armor limits, also the rot isn't all that bad Lee, it's the reason people can reach 999/999 on some maps.

@master[mind] glad we're on the same page then.

@ender if you are from Europe then the lag is a weird issue, have you checked your cables and such, if you are using wlan then that's your problem. I also don't have very low ping on servers but it's still well within acceptable limits and I have a mostly bad connection upload wise.

@halogene even if it's one of the main problems of the weapon? then damage and damage radius must be reduced, otherwise it won't be balanced.
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#48
(06-01-2010, 01:59 AM)unknownnf Wrote: Ammo cap would not matter IMO, it's something that will just happen once you get health/armor limits, also the rot isn't all that bad Lee, it's the reason people can reach 999/999 on some maps.

I wasn't proposing ammo rotting, but it would be interesting to see that happen and it would definitely be a first. If it's doable it should be experimented with.
ECKZBAWKZ HUGE LIST OF ACHIEVEMENTS GOES HERE....


Oh wait.
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#49
Lee, I meant the health rot, ammo limits and rotting does not matter, once you die, you loose that, it's quite rare for somebody to have loads of ammo and can lose it quite quick if he doesn't have loads of heath. IMO ammo rotting is a bad idea, why would it even be tried? Tongue
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#50
(05-28-2010, 08:09 PM)tZork Wrote: I see you point kojn, but i must also say that esr and similar sites tend to hold the largest concentration of uneducated, exaggerated opinionaters known to man. Basing something out the collective bitch-ass-crying-fucktard-inbred-dysfunctional collective opinion of esr and you end up with a game thats harmonic blend of all the popular games that already copy each other to death. well maybe with a few pr0leet mods that make it impossible to grasp for any newcomer. /flame

You cant really use the same measurements for a game such as this as for a commercial game; the motivation and principle drive behind the two are fundamentally different. 10.000 angry, paying, tards cry "we want pink pogo-stick in crysis". Crysis gets pink pogo-stick. 10.000 angry freeloading tards cry "we want pink pogo-stick in Xonotic", ill say lawl notnx. if you want it; you do it. Personally i dont give a flying fuck if the player-base dosent grow beyond this; its nice if it does of course but its not why i develop for this game. I develop for this game because a) i like game development, and b) i want to shape the game towards something _I_ like. Dont get me wrong here; im not saying i do not listen to ppls ideas and complaints. Im trying to explain what drives me (and i suspect most of the ppl who develop Xonotic) to do what we do. If this game, for example would head in the direction of being a straight quake3/live clone id quit in a heartbeat and never look back. those games just aren't my cupa.

Wrt to competitive community, id have to say that id rater see a competitive community grow from within the player base then trying to "import" one from other games.

Agreed.

What do you get when you combine everyone's favorite colors?

...

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