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[WIP] It was Basement reworked

#1
Well, Cortez was right.


I had a lot of fun trying a first map, and twiddle with tools here and there, but it was just too much ahah.
That's why I decided to start a new thing, not from scratch: do a remake (yes, again a remake).
Anyway, it seemed to work better that way, because I had more practice and stuff.

So here's my take on the rework on a Nexuiz Classic map: Basement.
I took it as a base to start (well, we got to start somewhere and I was running out of ideas).
But what happened, finally, is far from being that map. Also, I actually started from scratch, because the original map was kind of messy with brushes. So I built it starting from zero.
The first floor is, of course, Basement's layout. But rescaled a little bit larger, the original map was way too small.
Then, I decided to make one change, then another one, and at the end, it's completely different. But whatever.

Features
It has two warpzones, each accessing the second floor from a different point. That give, I think, the impression that the map is actually bigger than it really is (gosh, I really love them).
You got a little bit of Skyway spirit in there too. I thought it was cool. So the idea is to be able to flee away from a fight at any time, but still be able to join the main zone in the center to fight back.

So here's the thing. I need some feedback on the following points:
  • The scale. Is it too small? I conceived it a duel, of course. But maybe there's space to add one more floor, so tell me. I could still rescale it after compilation though.
  • The general layout. Is it even interesting?
  • Weapons & Items. Which ones are suitable for this size?
Yeap, the ceiling is way too close, but I'm actually thinking about closing it completely. Had some ideas about a mining facility, dunno if it's a good idea though.
The lighting is stupid, I experimented here and there, but well, don't look too much at it.
I just want to be certain about the layout, and then I could start the greatest part: aesthetics.

The name has to be found. This one is really bad.
Pics & download
[Image: 1505160475-xonotic20170911220200-00.jpg]
[Image: 1505160475-xonotic20170911220229-00.jpg]
[Image: 1505160475-xonotic20170911220258-00.jpg]



OMG I DOWNLOAD IT HERE RIGHT NOW
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#2
This looks rather interesting from the screenies! So interesting that I actually downloaded it and had a run.

I like the verticality of the layout. Coming originally from 3DOF Descent in my distant past, I still favor maps that actually use all 3 dimensions well. The routes are already well interconnected and interesting. However, I think the main room is too open, leaving little to no space to retreat. I believe it would do the map good if you blocked view and passage at some places to make the main room less transparent, maybe even roughly divide it into several rooms that are connected only via the dedicated routes. This could be done by adding pillars, support structures for the passageways, crates, shelves with stuff, wires/pipes that effectively separate areas but look like they just stand in the way and not like walls. That way you could keep up the open impression of the main room.

The warpzones are well  placed and enhance the interconnectivity of the areas which, imho, just have to be seperated a bit more.

Obviously there should be ramps all over the place, the rounded trims look nice but are hardly useful for gameplay. For example there definitively needs to be a ramp (maybe broken down stairs parts) where the second floor starts out of nowhere and soon stairs go up from there - you have to be able to get to that second floor platform from below without laser jumping. But no ladder please :oD

This looks already quite promising, good work!
[Image: 249.png] Latest track on soundcloud: Farewell - to a better Place (piano improvisation)
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<ZeRoQL> i think i got 1 proper quad and that cunt halogen fuck me over with a laser
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#3
Hey, thanks for your kind feedback. Glad you like it.
So yes indeed, I like three-dimensional maps because you can attack from almost everywhere, that opens up interesting strategies.

(09-08-2017, 03:27 AM)Halogene Wrote: I like the verticality of the layout. Coming originally from 3DOF Descent in my distant past, I still favor maps that actually use all 3 dimensions well. The routes are already well interconnected and interesting. However, I think the main room is too open, leaving little to no space to retreat. I believe it would do the map good if you blocked view and passage at some places to make the main room less transparent, maybe even roughly divide it into several rooms that are connected only via the dedicated routes. This could be done by adding pillars, support structures for the passageways, crates, shelves with stuff, wires/pipes that effectively separate areas but look like they just stand in the way and not like walls. That way you could keep up the open impression of the main room.
Yes, I thought maybe the routes where too thin. That's why I wanted to add some more height, giving the impression that these ways are actually hooked to the ceiling. So it would make interesting geometry to add, some kind of open and suspended tunnels...

(09-08-2017, 03:27 AM)Halogene Wrote: The warpzones are well  placed and enhance the interconnectivity of the areas which, imho, just have to be seperated a bit more.
What do you mean by separate them? Rescale a little bit the whole map? Or just get a little bit more distance between all of them (i.e get a larger central room)? Yeah, I thought the last floor felt a little bit small.

About the ramps: yeap, I wouldn't know how to make a ladder anyway. Maybe yes, I'll drop the curves for something more gameplay-oriented. This was done for testing purposes only, and because patch meshes are fun.

Again, thanks for your feedback.
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#4
By "separating areas" I was referring to what I said about the main room, that it could well be separated into areas. You may want to have a look at the map boil where there is also a rahter large room that has many things in it that block view or passageway. Building "areas" into a large room while keeping interconnectivity has been done there very well imho.
[Image: 249.png] Latest track on soundcloud: Farewell - to a better Place (piano improvisation)
New to Xonotic? Check out my Newbie Corner!
<ZeRoQL> i think i got 1 proper quad and that cunt halogen fuck me over with a laser
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#5
I see. But given the size of the map, I'm afraid that it will feel a little bit cramped after that.
I'll try however.
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#6
Well. the layout was never a strength of basement. 
My advice do not aim for a duel map. Keep it as a small ffa map instead.
The mining facility idea is quiet good. That would allow some interesting touches and make it less like skyway.
you could add a floor (with holes) where the original floor was and the upper path is a facility and the lower a mine
<Samual> I am the most unprofessional developer ever
<bluez> halogene, you make awesome music, but you have no clue about ctf.
<Halogene> I didn't know mappers include some mysterious waypoints so members of the BOT clan can navigate a map?
<divVerent> if you don't pay for a premium account, your movement speed is limited to 100qu/s
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#7
Hi hox3d, I quite like the layout and the usage of the warp zones, the movement flows nicely around the map - but as the others have mentioned, it is very open and I can image that playing against someone that is good with the Nex would be more than just a little annoying Wink (assuming the map had a Nex in it).


I think either FFA or a multi-team domination map could work !?
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#8
Thanks for the feedback Munyul. I'll take that into account, I'm thinking about closing the thing a little bit.

(09-08-2017, 12:22 PM)Cortez666 Wrote: Well. the layout was never a strength of basement. 
My advice do not aim for a duel map. Keep it as a small ffa map instead.
The mining facility idea is quiet good. That would allow some interesting touches and make it less like skyway.
you could add a floor (with holes) where the original floor was and the upper path is a facility and the lower a mine
What would be the difference exactly? Duel isn't it just FFA with two players?
Good idea on the mine under the main floor though. I'll definitely do that.
And I'm thinking about adding a last upper zone, but we'll see. First things first.
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#9
(09-08-2017, 02:44 PM)hox3d Wrote: Duel isn't it just FFA with two players?
Exactly. It's FFA with just two players, so if you were to make a map for duel - you would have just the right amount of pickup resources for ONE person, so that then you'd have TWO people to fight over it. You can also apply this logic to FFA or Team deathmatch: Have resources for just one person and have everyone fight over it.

A good duel map is one where one player can hog all the items, have enough time to hunt your opponent and reach back to the items before they respawn. The benefit of hogging armor for example, is that you can now endure more hits and your opponent has to hit you more. So in a way, you can win against an opponent even if they have a better accuracy than you do. If there's too much armor in the map, then there's also less value in controlling the resources. Then it essentially becomes a game of accuracy again.

I recommend you watch some duel commentary videos to better understand duel gameplay:

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#10
Wow, that's impressive.
That's a cool thing that a I actually came around here, to learn these new aspects of Xonotic. I guess that's the problem for most new players: they still think it as a particular FPS, but it has more in common with strategy game than FPS, it seems.

So if FFA/Duel is mainly about weapons placement, we'll see that later. If it was about geometry, that would be critical at this point, but I can forget it for now.
There are not many duel maps in the official release right?
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#11
(09-09-2017, 07:50 AM)hox3d Wrote: So if FFA/Duel is mainly about weapons placement, we'll see that later. If it was about geometry, that would be critical at this point, but I can forget it for now.
There are not many duel maps in the official release right?
Speaking of geometry.. I don't think basing your map into an existing one counts as a remake. I don't recognize Basement in your map at all, which I do think is a good thing though. Scale doesn't really affect how many items are optimal for a map, all that it really just does is make more room for people to fight in it. In some large TDM maps for example, the scale is too big for one player to hog all items - but then you can sort of assign different players to different segments. In duel however the scale should be somewhat smaller.

Fuse, Finalrage, Warfare and Darkzone, Stormkeep and Quark are among the best official duel maps. Silentsiege works too, but it's little too spacious for duel in my opinion -  however in turn it's perfect for 2v2 and FFA. I'm also personally not a big fan of Stormkeep, because it's just too flat for Xonotic's vertical gameplay - but it still works particularly well for strategic gameplay. Aerowalk (unofficial map) in the other hand is a spawn fragging spastic teleport action, which is good for fast paced, execution based and less strategic duels. Different scales and shapes produce different feels for maps.

EDIT: If you're interested, I've recently been uploading some duel videos on Xonotic and they can be found on this playlist.
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#12
Ahah, I thought first about making a faithful remake, but given the layout in itself (which wasn't that interesting), I quickly gave up and did my own stuff. If you look closely at the first floor, this is an enlarged Basement layout. But the comparison stops here.

In fact, it was more the spark/trigger to give me ideas.
I really like Stormkeep for the aesthetics. It's simply beautiful (and yes, that's one of the reasons why I choose a map sometimes hehe).

Curious how such a map (the original Basement) could actually end up in the official release. I don't think it was really interesting gameplay-wise (it often ended up in spawnfrag parties with Minsta).
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#13
(09-09-2017, 11:19 AM)hox3d Wrote: Curious how such a map (the original Basement) could actually end up in the official release. I don't think it was really interesting gameplay-wise (it often ended up in spawnfrag parties with Minsta).
Some maps get in on merit and some on the looks. Depends on who's voting and what their preferences are. I only remember playing it on insta1v1 as well, back in Nexuiz and here at Xonotic.
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#14
If you're still looking for another name, how about "Basemental"?
4m038105 - Be the change.
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#15
(09-10-2017, 06:09 AM)The mysterious Mr. 4m Wrote: If you're still looking for another name, how about  "Basemental"?
Ahahahaha, not bad.
Got to say that in French, it either sounds like "Mind fuck" (in a really rude way) or it makes me think about cheese (yeah, sorry).
You know, that cheese with holes.

Anyway, I worked on the map and I'm quite happy with the result. Or at least, you may start to understand where I want to go with that map.

@Halogene and Munyul: I didn't work much on the flaws you pointed out (open design), but that will be the next step. I separated one zone though. What I mainly did is improved consistency over the map, heavy brush work (though I'm not really happy on some parts). I also made a decent ceiling, so I won't have to worry about that part anymore.
But I think I found a nice look to give to it. I played a little bit with patches, it's sooooo cool, it's kinda powerful in fact.

The screenshots are updated, and you can download the updated map from the git. Hope you like where it goes!
Three Club-Mate is my limit. After that, I won't guarantee anything.
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#16
@hox3d, just to be clear, open designs are not bad - it all depends on what the targeted gameplay type is (duel, FFA, TDM, etc) and also which weapons are available in the map.
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