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[SUGGESTION] Weapon Balance and Presentation 2016

#1
As some of you know, I just came back to Xonotic after a 2-3 year hiatus. And I have some new insights on the current weapon balance. I plan to start up a custom server soon to test out these ideas, but I thought it might be best to ask here first.

This list makes a few assumptions.
  • The lightning gun on the SMB servers replaces the MG
  • the more obscure weapons don't exist (Rifle, HLAC, Minelayer)

Laser
Perfect, no changes
Model is good.


Shotgun
Perfect, no changes.
The model, although low fidelity, fits the weapon well.


Lightning Gun
The SMB balance is a little overpowered, drag should be increased to make aiming take more concentration. Secondary fire seems to be a clone of the hagar and does't feel like it belongs.
The model is low fidelity and does not fit the personality of the weapon.


Mortar
Perfect, no changes.
Gun model fits but is low fidelity.
Grenade model could be more futuristic.


Electro
This weapon I plan on overhauling the most. Before you freak out, the secondary/primary fire combo does not change.

The primary fire feels awkward. The fire rate and damage don't add up into something that is useful or feels satisfying to use. I suggest making multiple small electro beams in a randomized shotgun pattern rather than 1 large beam. The total damage of all the shots hitting would exceed the current damage input of the current electro beam.

The other major change, would be to change the ammo type from electric to shells. The visuals would reflect this, making the electro shoot red hot molten metal, and the secondary being a heat activated grenade. Obviously the name would need to change too. This would reduce the sources of cells ammo for the vortex, which is currently too high.


Crylink
I have a very interesting idea for the crylink, but I fear it may be too complicated or overpowered. The primary fire remains the same. The secondary fire gets replaced with a damage blocking shield.

First, the crylink gets its own ammo type (plasma). It spawns wherever bullet ammo used to.

While secondary is being held down, the user gets a shield in front of them that blocks 50% of damage (before armor is calculated) if they are facing (within 90deg) the source of the damage. When hit the blocked damage eats out of the crylink's ammo stock instead of the health pool. It also knocks the player back more than usual.

Here is where things get interesting, if the player still has the shield up after absorbing a hit with it, they can use the primary fire to preform a retaliation shot, which would be a railgun shot, and do the amount of damage that the shield has so far absorbed. (multiplied by some modifier).

For anyone confused,
Left click = current crylink primary
Right click = raises shield while held, lowers when not.
Left click + Holding Right click = attempted retaliation shot, does a no-ammo click noise if there is no absorbed damage.

Additional points, disabling the shield while it has retaliation points, and wastes them, switching weapons kills the shield.

Balance concerns that will need investigation.
Should the shield drain ammo while activated?
Should the player be allowed to pickup items while shield is active.
Should there be a delay/animation while activating and deactivating shield.


Appearance wise, the crylink model is low fidelity and too small, but I like the purple tubes design.


Hagar
This weapon is the least fun to use out of the current build. The primary fire's rockets move too slowly. The secondary fire is fine.
Primary fire feels and sounds horrible to use, explosion sounds are too soft suffer from the same audio visual issues as explosive weapons in borderlands. The model also feels a little bland and is low fidelity.

To change this, change the Hagar's ammo type to plasma(crylink ammo), and re-design the audio and visual style to a sort of plasma ball launcher. Also make the plasma balls move a little faster than the current hagar rockets.


Rocket Launcher
Perfect, no changes.
Needs a new model.


Vortex
Is currently overpowered, although I know this is a touchy subject for veterans.
I suggest only making the charge meter begin charging when you are capable of firing. (currently the shot delay means it is half changed when you can preform a second shot.)
Also consider a reverse damage falloff, so players within shotgun range take reduced damage.
Model is alright, but could use a little improvement.
Also, note that Doom 2016 named their sniper rifle the Vortex, although we had the name first.


With this balance, we also achieve ammo type symmetry.

Shells: Shotgun, "Electro"
Plasma: Crylink, "Hagar"
Rockets: Mortar, RL
Cells: LG, Vortex

So, what do you think?

It just occurred to me that the crylink shield might work better as the lightning gun secondary instead of the crylink one.
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#2
I find some of the changes to be interesting, namely on the crylink. I don't know exactly how it would play, but I'm looking to give your tweaks a spin when you get them up on a server.
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#3
And I have an option too, the hagar model is ugly and the vaporizer aka minstagib/instagib, and the lightning gun is a cheap knock off of an old xonotic shotgun cannon model with replaced textures. I also think we should get a new vortex model it feels so wrong.
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#4
Welcome back Hutty.

I really like that ammo becomes symmetrical.

Generally, the weapon suggestions seen sane, but I think I am going to miss the weapons that go complete redesign, and so are most of the other people.
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#5
(04-25-2016, 06:17 PM)hutty Wrote: As some of you know, I just came back to Xonotic after a 2-3 year hiatus. And I have some new insights on the current weapon balance.

Welcome back! These fresh insights are indeed valuable.

(04-25-2016, 06:17 PM)hutty Wrote: Electro
... snip ...

I like the idea of consuming the alternative ammo to reach the ammo type symmetry.

What do you mean by random shotgun patterns? Sometimes 3 fast continuous shots, sometimes 4 together, sometimes 2 slow ones? I personally prefer some predictability in core weapons and leave gambling to the alternative fun weapons, but that's me.

I will miss the bright white electro visual effect though. Overtime, it grew on me as part of how Xonotic visual feels. However, I can learn to like the new improvement, too.

(04-25-2016, 06:17 PM)hutty Wrote: Crylink
... snip ...

Crylink is my current favorite weaspon in Xonotic. And I find your suggestion awesome!

I very much like the idea of shielding. I'd like to throw in some feedback/ideas here:
  • Shield should definitely drain some energy. Nothing should come for free.
  • I think it should take some (short) time to turn on/off a protective energy field. The opponent can then change the strategy, too (so we need visual). The percentage of damage blockage can also be exponentially weighted during this time.
  • The player will take 50% of the damage; Crylink will temporarily store 40% for retaliation, with 10% energy loss. (all parameters tweakable).
  • It'd be more interesting if the retaliation shot is basically returning whatever incoming is, rather than always a railgun shot.

(04-25-2016, 06:17 PM)hutty Wrote: It just occurred to me that the crylink shield might work better as the lightning gun secondary instead of the crylink one.

I personally would like this to be part of Crylink because of its futuristic character.

(04-25-2016, 06:17 PM)hutty Wrote: With this balance, we also achieve ammo type symmetry.

LIKE!

(04-25-2016, 06:17 PM)hutty Wrote: I plan to start up a custom server soon to test out these ideas, but I thought it might be best to ask here first.

Do you plan to code these, and hopefully have the idea merged back to trunk?

I very much appreciate experiments like yours. I'm just wondering whether such modification would warrant renaming of the weapons to avoid confusion (of developers and players).
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#6
I do plan on coding these, I got git compiling yesterday and have been leisurely browsing through the code on my phone all day.

Apparently there is already an ammo type named plasma, but none of the weapons seem to use it.

Quote:What do you mean by random shotgun patterns?
I mean the electro would shoot 4 (mini) shots at once at randomized angles, like the shotgun currently does. I would make it so one shot always go down the middle, so that you can reliable pull off the combo. (shotguns in source engine also do this)

Quote:I will miss the bright white electro visual effect though
I won't, the dynamic lights most weapons make are too extreme across the board, it hurts my eyes. I won't touch on this until I find out more details about the daemon port though.

Quote: It'd be more interesting if the retaliation shot is basically returning whatever incoming is, rather than always a railgun shot.
the crylink shield is already going to be tricky to program, doing this would make it impossible. Also, why would you ever not want a railgun shot?

The only weapon I was going to rename would be the electro, I was thinking Heatshot, but I'm open to suggestions.

Anyways, I appreciate the feedback.

On a side note, what if hagar "rockets" stuck around for a second before exploding? (excluding direct hits).
Also, while this won't make sense aesthetically, what if the lightning gun's secondary placed minelayer mines.
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#7
It could make sense aesthetically.
Plasma mines aren't a new idea in the FPS world, Red Eclipse and even Unreal Tournament (IIRC) have something like that. It could work very well if done right.

As for the electro shooting multiple shots at once; Try voting for rocketminsta on the (SMB) USA Insta+Hook server.
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#8
This shield idea sounds very interesting, I'd love to try that out. I'm not so sure about electro primary, somehow I feel Xonotic already has quite some randomness in the weapons (electro balls fly with random spread, mg spread, hagar spread, shotgun spread....). Imho mines have been proved to be fun but rather displaced in a fast paced game like Xonotic, so I don't really see them come to vortex secondary (apart from vortex being strong as it is).

Please note that Crylink secondary provides currently VERY interesting gameplay features such as catapulting people out of their flight path when hit in mid-air, Crylink running and Crylink climbing, as well as breaking other people's movement in general which makes it a very versatile weapon that opens attack perspectives beyond dealing damage. I'd personally object to that fire mode being replaced. I wouldn't mind putting the shield on arc seondary tho :o)
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#9
LIGHTNING GUN: I was the one who pushed forward the lightning gun idea and Mario helped with the code side. The idea with it's secondary was to literally be a clone of Hagar so that Hagar could be removed and there would be less core weapons (less keybinds) in XPM. Hagar's secondary would be missed, but I don't think it fills any exclusive roles in the game. It's basically a close range rocket that you need to charge. I've only ever seen people use it when they have no other weapons or when they know they've won and start going for glory kills with unconventional weapons. Only numerical difference between Arc's secondary and Hagar's primary was that Arc has no spread, so you can predict shots with it in long range more reliably (a long requested feature for Hagar).

I don't think the primary was overpowered, it was simply another weapon that could fight on equal grounds against splash combos. It's understandable why people think it's OP because you're not used to the advantages the weapon has in certain positions (when opponent is in air), people that I tested the gun with often jumped off of platforms with no consideration to the fact that they're easy targets to Arc. However you also have to understand how easy it is to bounce people in this game, all it takes is one blaster shot somewhere near your feet and you'll have the Arc user's aim crumble immediately.

CRYLINK: We also made crylink's primary projectiles not detonate when one of them collides with a player. All this in hopes to make the gun less OP, harder to deal damage with and emphasize the importance of the spread/cross feature. In other words, make it necessary for you to aim with the damn gun.

As for your idea: A shield sounds like a no-no feature for me. Protection for damage in this game is handled by armor, the sole purpose of getting armor is to be able to endure against opponents with better accuracy. If you make a weapon that has a damage absorbing shield, that'll only drop the value of armor pickups and control.

ELECTRO: We also changed Electro a little bit, the secondary balls now detonate when they collide with players whilst the balls are in air (like it used to during Reversion cup). I wished that the trajectory of the balls were less spread/random so that you could deliberately/reliably hit with them given that you have the aim. I couldn't convince Mario though.

I like the visual idea you have of electro. I've always imagined some ball shaped grenades that make nice spherical metallic sounds when they bounce in the floors.

SHOTGUN: As a follow up to the lightning gun idea and loss of Hagars secondary, I had an idea (which has not been implemented anywhere yet) to make shotgun primary fire more similar to Quakeworld's boomstick which has a higher fire rate, less pread (longer range) but also less damage. Secondary would be a firemode that loads multiple shots (like hagar) and then releases them with a spread and range similar to current shotgun (only with slightly bit more damage).

Additionally, the slap would be moved from shotgun to Blaster/Laser because the current secondary for blaster is pretty much pointless. It makes comboing weapons easier from laser to whatever, but it doesn't change the fact that you need keybinds for every weapon (including laser) and are required to use them anyway in other weapon combinations. It's a very low end feature and deserves to be traded with something more fulfilling.

VORTEX: I don't want Vortex's reliability in close/long range to change, it's a rather unique feature in arena shooters. So rather than coming up with more unintuitive range/damage/charge ideas, you could just nerf the damage altogether. I've always hated the charge feature, it's stupid. The weapon could deal a solid 60 dmg everytime for all I care. Doesn't matter to me if it's weak as long as you can still weapon combo with it in both close/long range.

I agree with all the points about ammo types, it needs to be balanced properly and afaik it's just a matter of someone making a model for the ammo type.
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#10
I treat the vortex like a instagib and I can destroy everyone with it, most people would be using mortar but I'll be spamming the nex like no problem.
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#11
LIGHTNING GUN/ARC:
I think there are two problems why the arc is not used on many servers:
1. secondary is way op especially if you are in close range
2. it can heal teammates which breaks ca
I like the idea of the new "hagar clone" secondary and removing hagar completely

HAGAR:
Secondary is useless for long range, but if you happen to have it fully charged when an enemy runs through a doorway, it is mostly a kill. In duel, this might be anticipation, but with many players there is quite a bit of luck involved.
I would not be sad if it got removed (but maybe keep it in code for newtoys)

CRYLINK:
I like the idea of a shield, but I fear that it will be impossible to balance making crylink even more OP. Maybe this can be added as an independent super weapon instead of crylink secondary.
For both primary and secondary, I would decrease the damage and increase the force so it would be primarily a weapon to move the enemy around.

SHOTGUN+BLASTER:
+1 for Smilecythe's ideas

ELECTRO:
I like the idea of changing visuals and name. The shotgun like primary might work out, but I guess that depends heavily on the balance. (The fast refire of the current primary does make it relatively strong in close range. It is not as good as other weapons, but I wouldn't call it useless)

MORTAR:
Balance is good in my opinion.

VORTEX:
I don't think it is OP at all, especially if you consider that it can't really move your enemy around (unless they are in mid air)

ROCKET LAUNCHER:
The rocket launcher is too strong in my opinion, especially compared to mortar/vortex. It does more/equal damage and can additionally move the enemy around to mess up their aim. Yes, the mortar is faster, but the ability to curve and detonate the rockets evens that advantage out imo.

I totally agree about ammo types. However if the hagar really gets removed, there will be no "perfect distribution" of ammo types (which would not be terrible I guess) or there has to be a replacement for the hagar (atm I can't think of a weapon concept that is not allready implemented).
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#12
@Smilecythe

The laser secondary is for new players, so they can use it effectively while still using scroll wheel to switch weapons.

I love the shotgun in its current state, the slap attack is actually very useful and fun to pull off. Strong shotguns in a game like xonotic are not very fun to fight against, (jeff's server does a good job at demonstrating this)

Removing the hagar all together would lead to some interesting problems, like what to do with all the hagar spawn points.

Quote:Protection for damage in this game is handled by armor, the sole purpose of getting armor is to be able to endure against opponents with better accuracy.
Good luck doing that when the opponent has map control. The reason for the crylink (or arc) shield is to provide a means for an underdog player to tip the scales. Currently when a player has map control they easily nex+mortar=dead any newly spawned player. The crylink would be of little value to a well stocked player, but great value to one without the power weapons.
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#13
(04-27-2016, 07:06 AM)hutty Wrote: Strong shotguns in a game like xonotic are not very fun to fight against, (jeff's server does a good job at demonstrating this)
What Jeff did was increase it's damage, nothing more. You don't charge it or anything, just point and click. Quakeworld's shotgun is by no means strong, max damage is 24 and the cooldown is 500ms. When your opponent has no armor - you need to hit them 5 times before they die and it'll take you a minimum of 2,5 seconds assuming that you can actually hit them. Needless to say, it's not very effective against non-spawn weapons. My idea was to have a primary shotgun like this and a secondary which charges up a few of those 24dmg shells and then fires it in a larger, more closed range spread. This would mean that it wouldn't be as strong as the current shotgun is during weapon comboing.

Xonotic's shotgun currently deals about 45-50 damage when you hit someone in close range. Long/mid range shots deal about an average of 10 dmg.

(04-27-2016, 07:06 AM)hutty Wrote: The laser secondary is for new players, so they can use it effectively while still using scroll wheel to switch weapons.
New players don't even combo weapons let alone know how to laser jump, they rush in with the strongest weapon that they could find. And new players aren't new players forever, you can't depend on the laser combo feature forever because you have to learn comboing with other weapons as well. It's a pointless stepping stone feature that only drags the mechanics down for the not-new players.

(04-27-2016, 07:06 AM)hutty Wrote: Removing the hagar all together would lead to some interesting problems, like what to do with all the hagar spawn points.
Somehow it was not a problem with HLAC spawns though. You can A. edit the map or B. replace the weapon with ARC. There's only a handful maps that people play competitively anyway so it's not as large job as you probably imagine. We can start with the most played maps (primarily duel maps) and then gradually the less popular maps. We don't have to worry about the hundreds of FFA/CTF maps that are played for fun anyway.

(04-27-2016, 07:06 AM)hutty Wrote: Good luck doing that when the opponent has map control. The reason for the crylink (or arc) shield is to provide a means for an underdog player to tip the scales.
Okay so, you just control the shield gun and deny that as well. What will you provide for under dog players then? Being in the under dog position is a key element in this game. That's exactly the point of controllable/deniable item pickups, this is what makes this game different from regular shooters where everything is solved by running and gunning.

Edit: Also, crylink/arc is not on every map. So having this weapon with a shield gun would be a gimmick that changes the dynamic of protection map specifically, it would not be a core feature. Armors are on every map and is a core feature. Also if you plan on putting this gun on every map then you'll just contradict your statement from above.
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#14
Jeff's server greatly increases the fire rate of the stock shotgun. I have never played multiplayer quake and I don't care how their weapon system works. I care how xonotic's works. And from my experience strong shotgun's are not fun to fight against. It was overpowered and dumb in doom2016, TF2's scout (a fast moving shotgun based class) is the most annoying thing in the game (and is only balanced because every gun in TF2 needs reloading), and it doesn't work on Jeff's server. Xonotic's shotgun is in the perfect spot where its strong enough to not be useless, but not strong enough to use over the other weapons in most situations (works great as a combo finisher though).

HLAC and Hagar are rarely on the same map, so putting Hagar where HLAC was is easy. MG and Hagar are on the same map very often, some maps even have 2 MG spawns. Many maps will have 2 or 3 Arcs.

If the player on top also has to prioritize collecting the crylink, then the vortex, mega health, and mega armor will get less attention, this gives the underdog more opportunities to steal a power pickup.
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#15
Well you're pretty determined with that idea so whatever. Moving on to other ideas:

What if Electro's balls always dealt the max damage when they explode? Even without the combo detonation? This way you could use the balls themselves in a grenade sort of way. I feel like the balls are never a threat if the owner is nowhere close and I think that restricts the weapon more than it should. The thing called "electro combo" would then be more like a manual/faster detonation.

Also, I think the radius of the splash needs to be visualized more. When your dynamic lights are off, the explosions seem kind of insignificant.
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#16
Those are good points.
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#17
Please keep hagar secondary in one way or the other. It's an interesting and skillful weapon to use as you charge rockets and decide when to fire/cancel. It is also unique as in not even UT's loading RL is comparable, as it doesn't allow you to hold rockets for very long and even one rocket does a lot of dmg.

I don't really think luck argument is important as it can be applied to every other weapon.
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#18
(04-27-2016, 03:02 PM)Smilecythe Wrote: Well you're pretty determined with that idea so whatever. Moving on to other ideas:

What if Electro's balls always dealt the max damage when they explode? Even without the combo detonation? This way you could use the balls themselves in a grenade sort of way. I feel like the balls are never a threat if the owner is nowhere close and I think that restricts the weapon more than it should. The thing called "electro combo" would then be more like a manual/faster detonation.

Also, I think the radius of the splash needs to be visualized more. When your dynamic lights are off, the explosions seem kind of insignificant.

Way back (nexuiz 1.x times) i implemented similar ideas with mixed results on my occasional test servers. one of the more interesting fallouts of those test was letting electro blob "trips" (popping a blob by proxy) apply a temp debuf / vulnerability to electro primary hits. Keept spam somewhat useful as well as requiring good hits to capitalize
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#19
Sorry if I got anybody's hopes up, but other things have cropped up and I am unable to do major xonotic development right now.

If any of the above ideas have any value feel free to use them.
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#20
I've been thinking that the effectiveness of a weapon varies widely per map. So as a general balance thing it's hard to say.

Crylink can be overpowered in hallways areas where both the size of the projectile, ricochet, and spread often amounts to a guaranteed hit. As for the shield, it reminds me of a few situations where I think I've shot down other shots, by sheer luck and coincidence, but as some sort of barrier projected and maintained in front of the player, it seems to balance the odds you're pinned down by someone very far away using Vortex, but overpowered in most other scenarios like a close ranged fight.

Vortex is extremely powerful in a map that is very open or involves a lot of jump pads like space elevator for sure. I think it gives a lot of disincentives to fly around in the air or other tricks with the blaster/devastator. A personal opinion, ideally the game would permit more of that, but there's a huge risk of getting killed when Vortex is on the map.
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#21
That's how minstagib was invented.

I think that the perfect weapon system for Xon should consist of 10 weapons for perfect symmetry. One gun is the starter weapon that does not require ammo, and three groups of weapons with three ammo types. These group into:

1- Explosives
1.1 RL
1.2 GL
1.3 Hagar
2 - Energy
2.1 Crylink
2.2 Electro
2.3 LG
3- Third ammo type, something like shells, bullets, needles or slugs. It would essentially consist of weapons that propel their projectiles electromagnetically,
3.1 MG - Could be changed to Gauss assault rifle.
3.2 Nex - Already a railgun, technicly.
3.3 Another weapon we don't have yet. Or shotgun, quite an ordinary one, but boosted up the strength of a core weapon. Could be called needler.

The advantage of this system is its consistency and symmetry. At the same time, as there is only 3 weapons per group, there is not too much ammo for Nex.

I know there is a desire to cut down the number of weapons. Then we are going to end up with 8 guns, which can be divided into 2, 4, or 8 groups. In the layer case each weapon will have it's own unique ammo type, which I think is undesirable, as it will bring too much changes to gameplay and map layout. With 2 groups, we will end up with the same situation we have now, but without Mg and bullets. 4 ammo types is also what we have now
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#22
The weapon system would have 3 ammo types to fit the different types of weapons:

Explosives: Devastator, Mortar, (Hagar)
Cells: Electro, Arc
Plasma: Crylink, Vortex (which is actually a plasma rifle of sorts)
No ammo type: Blaster and some incarnation of the Shotgun to be used as an infinite ammo starter weapon

These plans have existed for a while, but have yet to be implemented, mainly due to balancing the new ammo types on old maps.
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#23
So Hagar gets removed? Why is it in brackets?
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#24
(04-27-2016, 07:44 AM)Smilecythe Wrote:
(04-27-2016, 07:06 AM)hutty Wrote: The laser secondary is for new players, so they can use it effectively while still using scroll wheel to switch weapons.
New players don't even combo weapons let alone know how to laser jump, they rush in with the strongest weapon that they could find. And new players aren't new players forever, you can't depend on the laser combo feature forever because you have to learn comboing with other weapons as well. It's a pointless stepping stone feature that only drags the mechanics down for the not-new players.

Please, keep a way to switch back to the previous weapon from laser. It's essential that Xonotic is playable without spending half an hour "fixing" the config. New players aren't new forever because they find a game that is playable with default config. Not being able to compete even on public servers is the reason I couldn't enjoy vanilla at first.

----

Also, if the weapon system is gonna be reworked, could it have a new order that places combo-able weapons next to each other? From watching duel videos, it appears mortar+vortex+RL work really well together, yet they're numbers 4,7,9. I settled on having them in this order next to each other and switching with mouse wheel (yes, I have then on 3,E,R too but it's just too much hassle to remember it when I play vanilla so sporadically and casually anyway). I'd be interested to hear what order Mirio uses and if that (or similar) could be used as default. It would be really awesome to have a default weapon order that works for at least somebody and not one that *nobody* uses.
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#25
(07-13-2016, 07:42 AM)martin-t Wrote: I'd be interested to hear what order Mirio uses and if that (or similar) could be used as default. It would be really awesome to have a default weapon order that works for at least somebody and not one that *nobody* uses.

"devastator mortar crylink vortex hagar machinegun electro shotgun blaster"

I dont have a special order for all the other weapons since I barely play with them, so I cut them out of this list.

So Devastator is my "base", therefore Blaster is at the end so I can cycle back from Devastator to Blaster and Shotgun. MG and Electro are in the middle, because I'm bad with them. Also you might want to switch up the Crylink position. Tongue I tried to change it myself, does not work anymore.
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