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Poll: Timelimit?
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Xonotic Duel Tourney

#1
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Yeah you just read the topic title correctly! [BOT] is organizing a serious tourney this time. Big Grin
I will leave some main information here and you can (should) read the rules and how it works at the page.
You have to register at tourney.cc (or you already have an account from previous tourneys or other games there) and sign-in there.
The tourney page: http://xonduel.tourney.cc/
The sign-in is open until 24 October 2011 and the tourney starts 1 day after that.
At first we will have a group stage and later on brackets (KO).

Info
  • Gamemode: Deathmatch (Tongue)
  • Timelimit: 10
  • Fraglimit: 0
  • Record demos (!! Admins might want to see them)
  • Contact admins in IRC at #bot.xonotic or #xonotic.pickup
  • Server: 85.31.186.161:24446 but it's public also and called ". eXiLe 1on1 Tournament Server ^eX ." (The server is located in EU/Germany)

We will play with current default duel settings so no blabla about this here please. Just sign-in, play and have fun. Tongue
Oh and of course you can ask questions here. Shy

gl hf
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#2
Sounds like fun. I´m sure I will participate if my ping is low enough. Tongue And it is also a good present for my birthday! Big Grin
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#3
the mappool is meehh
<Samual> I am the most unprofessional developer ever
<bluez> halogene, you make awesome music, but you have no clue about ctf.
<Halogene> I didn't know mappers include some mysterious waypoints so members of the BOT clan can navigate a map?
<divVerent> if you don't pay for a premium account, your movement speed is limited to 100qu/s
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#4
I would like to participate.

But I can't really be at a time online. Is it good if you just see that the other is on irc, and then ask him to play now, or do you have to play on planned days?

I mean, a lot of people are just almost always on irc. Can I, if I have to duel with him that week, just play with him when I see he's on irc. So like hey, u have tine for 1on1 now? Ok. And then just play.

If that's possible I'm in.

Edit: Already signed up Big Grin
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#5
Yes of course, that's how it works. You have 1 week to play the duel in each round (so 3 weeks). So you ask in IRC or PM when you want to play. Wink
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#6
(09-22-2011, 02:05 PM)Cortez666 Wrote: the mappool is meehh



well, this case is still open, we have some time and i think we can discuss the maps we want to play (am i right?). If you have some suggestions, go on.
I, for example, would add Bloodrun and maybe Solarium. I was playing TDM on it tiday and it was fine when it comes to FPS, layout-wise it's pretty cool
<Halogene> ok "n1" means "nice one"
<Halogene> "gl" means "good luck"
<Halogene> "fu" means "wow that was wickedly nice that frag"
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#7
well there are always the same maps like Final Rage or xoylent.
why dont you remove them and add only less played maps like darkzone?

another suggestion from my side is red!
<Samual> I am the most unprofessional developer ever
<bluez> halogene, you make awesome music, but you have no clue about ctf.
<Halogene> I didn't know mappers include some mysterious waypoints so members of the BOT clan can navigate a map?
<divVerent> if you don't pay for a premium account, your movement speed is limited to 100qu/s
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#8
I agree with Coretz666!

Playing unknown maps would be nice as it would make us know more maps, and would also equalize players chances. If everybody is new to the environment, it's much more fun!

Maybe final could be played on some brand new maps most people don't know yet? Like... Heavy Metal by Maddin?
[Image: BSF48.png][Image: HMITP48.png][Image: S48.png][Image: TLT48.png]
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#9
(09-22-2011, 03:42 PM)Mirio Wrote: Yes of course, that's how it works. You have 1 week to play the duel in each round (so 3 weeks). So you ask in IRC or PM when you want to play. Wink

Great! I'm in Big Grin
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#10
A few suggestions.

Time limit 15 is debateable, the new 'rage' seems to be 10 minute games, which I have nothing against or anything. Just something you might want to look into changing but it's not a huge problem or something.

Map-Pool.

Agree with cortez here, the map-pool is meh, why not ask some of the more experienced players for help on this?

Afterslime and atelier...definitely atelier is too big and is a TDM 2on2-4on4 map. Afterslime is possible because you can move around the map quickly and easily, but atelier I would not recommend for 1on1 at all.

Azalea does not have enoguh strategicness to it, it's a fun & good DM/FFA/LMS map, but I would not use this for duels definitely.

Downer_final, final_rage and ruined all fine..ruined can become a map-lock if you know how,but it's definitely an interesting and fast-paced map.

I would remove runningman as it is not really a very good 1on1 map at all.

Stormkeep is perfectly fine for duels, not the fastest of maps but a bit more tactical so something different and a good size for duelling.

Warfare - I would remove due to it having 3 100armours which is just ridiculous for a duel map. Unless someone wants to modify it, but I would just remove it from the map-list, doesn't offer too much in terms of gameplay for duel.

Xoylent - I know people like this map, but it's a space map, and space-maps are never good 'serious' duel maps just because you are going to get forced off quite easily from shots from splashdamage which basically is a cheap way of ending someone's control.

Why not add the new darkzone?

I would also consider red also, but I need to take a look at that but cortez didn't you re-do it for xonotic??

There's probably 1 or 2 other maps that I cannot think of whilst I'm at work but I would start to consider a smaller map-list first with maps that make sense for duel, and add to the list if need be.

Maybe kuniu could make a duel map the tournament?

But I'd really start small with the map-list then add more where neccessary.

By the way are you going to do bo3 (best of 3) or bo5 (best of 5) in the bracket/semi's/finals?

Obviously you don't need to take the advice offered, but that's coming from me playing competitive duel games for a long-time.
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#deathmatchers @ irc.quakenet.org

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#11
I also agree with Cortez but please don´t choose crappy looking maps. It isn´t fun to play on a map with bad visual appearance, well that´s the case for me.

And of course a +1 for unfa! Tongue

It may be also possible that I finished slimepit and/or bio_labour until the tourney starts. Then there would be some more maps to play.
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#12
(09-23-2011, 06:53 AM)kojn^ Wrote: I would also consider red also, but I need to take a look at that but cortez didn't you re-do it for xonotic??
not really, i only changed the texture so you can play it without the nexcompact pack


(09-23-2011, 06:53 AM)kojn^ Wrote: Maybe kuniu could make a duel map the tournament?
i guess from his point its azalea.

kojn: i think they tested maps like azalea or afterslime in 1on1s other they wouldnt put these maps in the map pool.
<Samual> I am the most unprofessional developer ever
<bluez> halogene, you make awesome music, but you have no clue about ctf.
<Halogene> I didn't know mappers include some mysterious waypoints so members of the BOT clan can navigate a map?
<divVerent> if you don't pay for a premium account, your movement speed is limited to 100qu/s
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#13
(09-23-2011, 06:53 AM)kojn^ Wrote: Azalea does not have enoguh strategicness to it, it's a fun & good DM/FFA/LMS map, but I would not use this for duels definitely.

No, it does. It's actually quite simple: Control the armor room, and use nex to do damage when people spawn at a distance and you couldn't spawnkill them near mega armor. Another strategy would be to "run" the map by keeping the mega health and mega armor 15 seconds apart and just pick up spawn kills. Since it is "new", there truly isn't any concrete strategies in place, and is more than likely often to be rejected by players. This holds true in quake live as well. In all honesty, however, the item placement of the map could be a little better; for instance, the mega armor and mega health should be swapped, since when you are in mega armor room you really don't have to do too much.

(09-23-2011, 06:53 AM)kojn^ Wrote: Xoylent - I know people like this map, but it's a space map, and space-maps are never good 'serious' duel maps just because you are going to get forced off quite easily from shots from splashdamage which basically is a cheap way of ending someone's control.

Position yourself in areas in which it is difficult or impossible to be thrown off of, and you'll be fine....keep a rhythm of spawn kills going and by the time you get thrown off the map (given if it does happen), it leaves your enemy no time to make a comeback.
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#14
(09-22-2011, 05:42 PM)Cortez666 Wrote: well there are always the same maps like Final Rage or xoylent.
why dont you remove them and add only less played maps like darkzone?

another suggestion from my side is red!

+1
(09-23-2011, 06:53 AM)kojn^ Wrote: A few suggestions.

Time limit 15 is debateable, the new 'rage' seems to be 10 minute games, which I have nothing against or anything. Just something you might want to look into changing but it's not a huge problem or something.


Maybe kuniu could make a duel map the tournament?

Cmon, kuniu! One more! Big Grin
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#15
We were not sure about timelimit so I picked 15, because it was 15 in the last tourney (in Nexuiz).
I just made a poll so vote please.

(09-23-2011, 07:32 AM)Maddin Wrote: It may be also possible that I finished slimepit and/or bio_labour until the tourney starts. Then there would be some more maps to play.

Slimepit would fit I guess, I did not see bio_labour yet (except some screenshots).

Red is a good suggestion too though I think it got way too much health (will play/test it still).
New-Staition could be tested as well.

Anyway I played kind of every map in duel sometime ago, also stuff like Aqueous, Reflection (which are ridiculous for sure).

We tried to pick maps where we can please everyone (at least with 1 map). I personally would never put Xoylent in for example, though you don't fall down much because of the less Nex push compared to Nexuiz (also the map is bigger than Soylent etc.).
Also we tried to put some Xonotic maps (i.e. Atelier) into the mappool. I know that Atelier is a quite big but you can move around pretty fast actually. BUT, this would be more likely the first map to be replaced but something else.

Solarium sucks performance wise for me for example. It's not too bad.
Darkzone: We had it in the pool, but removed it because it is not on the server. Apparently Unknown doesn't like it at all but maybe you can persuade him. Tongue

About Warfare: Maybe some mapper can fix the lift and remove the armour at the corner (stairs between RL and Electro).
Although Final Rage got a bad Mega layout as well. Wink

(09-23-2011, 06:53 AM)kojn^ Wrote: By the way are you going to do bo3 (best of 3) or bo5 (best of 5) in the bracket/semi's/finals?

BO3, maybe BO5 in semi-final and/or final.
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#16
Ok so slimepit will be finished in some weeks I think. Smile

What about heavy_metal? It´s small and would fit for a duel.

Edit: Signed up! Big Grin
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#17
Yes I agree mirio you can chain easily on finalrage has bad placement. There is another version made where it was much better balanced i think francotirador did it I would personally use that if I were you.

PCLizard I have hugged walls on xoylent and still been easily pushed off from
a rocket blast and basically can wipe out a hard built up control.


And as for azalea I played it in duel and it has the big open main room. You can go from the large armour to middle armour to mega nearly in a straight line currently.
Slimepit would be a good map to put in.

Anyway done discussing, but I think the map list should be about quality rather then quantity.
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#deathmatchers @ irc.quakenet.org

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#18
kojn^ Wrote:Slimepit would be a good map to put in.
Indeed. I´ll hurry. Wink
kojn^ Wrote:[...] I think the map list should be about quality rather then quantity.
Yeah, that´s right!
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#19
(09-23-2011, 11:20 AM)kojn^ Wrote: Yes I agree mirio you can chain easily on finalrage has bad placement. There is another version made where it was much better balanced i think francotirador did it I would personally use that if I were you.

PCLizard I have hugged walls on xoylent and still been easily pushed off from
a rocket blast and basically can wipe out a hard built up control.


And as for azalea I played it in duel and it has the big open main room. You can go from the large armour to middle armour to mega nearly in a straight line currently.

You gotta dodge rockets...lol.
Regarding Azalea, even if you can chain those items in a straight line, I doubt anyone would do that since it would be so predictable.
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#20
It's just as predictable as chaining them on Final_Rage, and we all know that happens when it's possible, the point is, it's just so easy to get a good start grab atleast 2 quickly, take control within 40 seconds and then all you have to do is control the nex and chain the items in a row after and you are going to be rediculously hard to kill.

I stand by that Azalea is not a good duel map. Has the big middle open area, and is basically a big square/rectangular map, didn't say it was a bad map, but there isn't enough going for it to make it have enough variable play for 1on1.

As for Xoylent I think your missing my point, but anyway.

Anyhow, that's my points over and finished, you can discuss further if you want obviously with the others.

BOT is hosting the tournament so they can do as they please Smile
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#deathmatchers @ irc.quakenet.org

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#21
No, I completely understand and comprehend your reasoning with not liking xoylent. If you do fall off, it does nullify all and any work you put into your stack; you lose control and possibly the game given certain circumstances whenever the event had occurred. However, the point that it even exists like that means it takes some form of knowledge and experience in order to AVOID that from happening. It's unique in the way it has:
6 spawns
The ability to fall off the map and die
Many, many trickjumps
One jump pad, and no teleporters/warpzones
Classic Nexuiz map (Ok, doesn't really count but I thought I'd through that in)

Some maps that you have mentioned have their flaws too. Any map that has lava/acid also has a similar event in which, given prolonged exposure to, you can die. Soylent and stormkeep each have a problem in which getting a certain spawn is more favorable than others....take the mortar-armor rocket-mega spawn on stormkeep. Just from the beginning of the game, depending on the circumstance, you might have a hole to dig out of. I don't think it's possible to have a completely balanced map in any game; even in quake live, you have spawns on ztn (now the most popular duel map in the game most likely) where one player gets the plasma spawn and another spawns in tunnel near sg that leads to rl. That person that got the sg spawn gets an RA, a mega, and a YA, and could have grabbed all three major weapons on the way. These spawns can also be "random" and "one-sided" during mid game as well, which often times turns the events of the game.

What I am trying to say is, if a map was completely balanced and had no flaws, it would be improbable for a player to get back control once he or she lost it. It would entirely be dependent on the mistakes of the person in control. The player would continue to get either spawn fragged or pushed away from major items until the person in control made that one major mistake, with no extra possibilities to give the person out of control a little bit more of a chance. Now don't get me wrong, getting pushed off the map into space and losing EVERYTHING is gay, but it happens much less on xoylent then say....evilspace. Tongue The reason why people like it because of the fact that it offers that possibility to people out of control. I guess that's why duel maps are never symmetrical, because it would become boring..same repetition over and over again. Quake live, although the maps there are not symmetrical, have no air control and makes someone more predictable, so it can feel like repetition sometimes.

Anyway, referring to the topic:
Is spawn protection going to be disabled, and will votes like g_shootfromeye be provided?
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#22
I have a few questions about dueling. I am only playing with weapons now for about 3 months, and never really dueled.
And I know I'm going to face people who have been dueling for years, but I'm absolutely not giving up.

I just want to know how to prepare me for this tourney.
-I already bound some weapons to keys (and moved from wasd to esdf), but what is the best way to do it (which weapons to which keys)?
-I know I need to walk around through the played maps, to practice trickjumps, know where the spawnpoints are, know where which teleporter/warpzone brings you, and just see where the weapons and health and armor are.

But what way do I need to play? Move around the map quickly, or just defend places with many weapons, h&a, and ammo?

Are there any other things I need to know, that I forgot to mention?
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#23
About the binds: I think that there is no real best way to do this, I simply try to bind the weapons that I use for combos the most to keys which I can press easily while moving around (pressing W,A,S,D). You'll have to decide which key bindings are comfortable to you in-game.

Regarding the map knowledge, I think that's simply a thing that you will learn after you gained experience. After playing the 10th or 20th game on a map as stormkeep, you will pretty much know where the items are. After playing often games with different players you will also kinda start to understand their way of playing, their typical moves, their favourite position etc.

It's also up to you how you want to play in a duel. You can play offensive if you're aiming is incredible or play smart and try to control your opponent. After playing several duels, you will automatically develope you're own playing style. So, to get good in duel there is (imo) only 1 thing you can do: play! Play several duels, try to find an opponent which matchs your skill level (not directly someone who just pwns you 30-0) and play with him from time to time. Watching demos from more experienced players will definitly help you.

Doing the same for your own demos will also help you to improve your playing style. This way you can e.g. see which mistake you made several times in a duel and try to not do it again in the next duel. Or you can see what you made good in a duel and try to expand it in your future duels.

Cheers,
fis
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#24
I suggested some time ago to replace the mega armors in warfare with smaller ones (probably 50 armor) which doesnt make them as important any more. I guess it would be a nice solution for the map - at least for the tourney.
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#25
..and I add that you should try to get(/control) the Megas (100 Health/Armour) which spawns every 30 seconds.
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