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Hey guys! Look! Steam!

#1
http://steamcommunity.com/games/221410/a...5487052635

Hurray!
[Image: 2386.png] Professional noob...
of...
Paradox Space...
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#2
Cool! I've also heard that Valve will not bring DRM to GNU/Linux, but devs can add it to their own games in Steam. Also I've heard rumors that they'll invest in open-source technologies.
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#3
(11-06-2012, 04:03 PM)machine! Wrote: Cool! I've also heard that Valve will not bring DRM to GNU/Linux, but devs can add it to their own games in Steam. Also I've heard rumors that they'll invest in open-source technologies.

Valve's copy protection will be available for GNU/Linux, but, as with windows, it's up to the developer whether to use it. It's worth mentioning Valve's DRM isn't very strong either, as a result it's not annoying and generally better for consumers than most DRM. Developers could also choose to implement their own DRM. Valve refuses to be an arbiter in this sense.

EDIT:
Not to imply that any DRM is good for consumers, but valve's is probably the least bad DRM that exists.
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#4
Great, but I want to participate too... Tongue
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#5
[Image: 3hns0l5G9DeqMCeJ3bZMRO]

then do this http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2012/11/reddi...nvitations

(I didn't try it myself though )
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#6
Dude I don´t use any hacks or methods that are illegal...
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#7
"Illegal" lol.
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#8
Maybe not illegal, but check the Steam ToS before you do anything. You could get your account banned if you're in violation, and (I'm guessing) you'll lose the games you've "bought".
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#9
I wouldn't consider that any kind of magic hack or anything, it's just that things are left open for you to do it. It doesn't say what the message is that you're given when it shows that you're not in the beta but there might be something written as part of it. It could well be outside of the Steam terms and conditions anyway.

As for DRM, from a legal perspective in most countries you have the right to make a backup copy however as Steam is online and games that you have registered to your account can be downloaded again, there is no backup copy making requirement, hence they can lock it down as much as they want without breaking the law.

Quote:as a result it's not annoying and generally better for consumers than most DRM.

Don't you mean:

Quote:as a result it's not annoying and generally better for people who don't want to pay for a legal copy than most DRM.

For consumers it's a good thing as it lowers the number of pirated copies in circulation and therefore reduces how much on balance they should have to pay for a product, this isn't like music or video piracy ;-)

pirate != consumer
I'm at least a reasonably tolerable person to be around - Narcopic
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#10
Why is it legal to have a backup copy? Do you even own the thing, or is it just a renting of sorts?
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#11
(11-12-2012, 05:34 PM)Mr. Bougo Wrote: Why is it legal to have a backup copy?
In case you lose the original. Many countries have this in their copyright laws. It means that the content provider can't prevent you from making a backup either.

I think it's one of these things where you don't own the software but the content provider has granted you limited rights to it. The same is true of Windows nowadays.
I'm at least a reasonably tolerable person to be around - Narcopic
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#12
But what if you have the original conficated, though? As far as I can tell, that happens if you violate the terms of service -- the account is closed with no refunds.
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#13
(11-12-2012, 04:36 PM)edh Wrote:
Quote:as a result it's not annoying and generally better for consumers than most DRM.

Don't you mean:

Quote:as a result it's not annoying and generally better for people who don't want to pay for a legal copy than most DRM.

When I say it's less annoying to consumers than most DRM I mean exactly that, just look at ubisoft's implementation. Most difficult to bypass DRM is implemented in a way that causes anguish to paying customers.

Quote:For consumers it's a good thing as it lowers the number of pirated copies in circulation

So far, no DRM scheme in the history of human achievement hasn't been bypassed.
Quote: and therefore reduces how much on balance they should have to pay for a product, this isn't like music or video piracy ;-)
Obtrusive DRM schemes cost more to develop than they save the developer, the maintenance cost of major DRM systems has exceeded us$ 9bn, according to insight research. Interestingly, there isn't a game ubisoft has published in the past 5 years that i can't download off thepiratebay right now.
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#14
(11-06-2012, 04:03 PM)machine! Wrote: Cool! I've also heard that Valve will not bring DRM to GNU/Linux, but devs can add it to their own games in Steam. Also I've heard rumors that they'll invest in open-source technologies.

It should be noted that it has always been up to the developer whether or not they wanted to included a DRM with the games they distribute on Steam. Believe it or not there's quite a few that have no means of copy protection that I can launch without having Steam open.

(11-12-2012, 05:57 PM)Mr. Bougo Wrote: But what if you have the original conficated, though? As far as I can tell, that happens if you violate the terms of service -- the account is closed with no refunds.

Then don't violate the terms of service, problem solved. Even in extreme cases of violations I've heard, Valve has mostly just prevented users from adding games to their accounts or developers have had them suspended from the multiplayer portion of specific games if they were caught hacking. The only times I've heard of accounts being locked out entirely were in cases of credit card fraud and the like. Steam may have it's TOS just like any other commercial program, but for me this platform more resembles a service than anything else given how many things are available to me through it, namely easy community access and the ability for me to download any game I have registered on there at any given time regardless of whether or not I have the original DVD or key handy. Don't get me started on sales where I often times grab games for $5 a pop.

(11-12-2012, 09:40 PM)s1lencer Wrote:
(11-12-2012, 04:36 PM)edh Wrote:
Quote:as a result it's not annoying and generally better for consumers than most DRM.

Don't you mean:

Quote:as a result it's not annoying and generally better for people who don't want to pay for a legal copy than most DRM.

When I say it's less annoying to consumers than most DRM I mean exactly that, just look at ubisoft's implementation. Most difficult to bypass DRM is implemented in a way that causes anguish to paying customers.

Quote:For consumers it's a good thing as it lowers the number of pirated copies in circulation

So far, no DRM scheme in the history of human achievement hasn't been bypassed.
Quote: and therefore reduces how much on balance they should have to pay for a product, this isn't like music or video piracy ;-)
Obtrusive DRM schemes cost more to develop than they save the developer, the maintenance cost of major DRM systems has exceeded us$ 9bn, according to insight research. Interestingly, there isn't a game ubisoft has published in the past 5 years that i can't download off thepiratebay right now.

I personally just want to be able to use the product that's licensed to me without being in kicked in groin for trying to do so. A simple login at system start up and clicking on an icon isn't that big of a deal for me. Now invasive systems that constantly scan my system and snoop outside of it's directory on the other hand is a different story as is any always online bullshit, but I dodge developers that put that stuff in there games and spread the word about their practices. As a result, said developers lose sales and eventually are forced to rethink their anti-piracy strategy. For example, Bethesda gave up on Games for Windows Live after Fallout 3, Ubisoft recently scrapped their always online DRM scheme, a TAGES-free version of Assault on Dark Athena was recently put of for sale on GOG, and Namco/Bandai from what I hear won't make Games for Windows Live a requirement (this happened because they didn't give From enough time to recode the online for Dark Souls, so to save time they used GFWL in their game which is basically a buggy port of XBox Live for Windows) for upcoming PC games either.

(11-12-2012, 05:34 PM)Mr. Bougo Wrote: Why is it legal to have a backup copy? Do you even own the thing, or is it just a renting of sorts?

Generally speaking it's OK to have backups of stuff your licensed to use and some of the TOS that I've read (namely the one for Unreal Tournament: Game of the Year Edition) explicitly say so. Your even legally allowed possess ROMs of any old console games you have lying around.
ECKZBAWKZ HUGE LIST OF ACHIEVEMENTS GOES HERE....


Oh wait.
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#15
Quote:So far, no DRM scheme in the history of human achievement hasn't been bypassed.

I'm pretty sure the track mania sunrise system ... where it installs a custom driver for your cd drive to read the special cd the game comes on ... hasn't been cracked ....


however ... since then the company has released the game without the sill DRM scheme ...
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#16
(11-13-2012, 07:10 AM)Lee_Stricklin Wrote: Then don't violate the terms of service, problem solved. Even in extreme cases of violations I've heard, Valve has mostly just prevented users from adding games to their accounts or developers have had them suspended from the multiplayer portion of specific games if they were caught hacking. The only times I've heard of accounts being locked out entirely were in cases of credit card fraud and the like. Steam may have it's TOS just like any other commercial program, but for me this platform more resembles a service than anything else given how many things are available to me through it, namely easy community access and the ability for me to download any game I have registered on there at any given time regardless of whether or not I have the original DVD or key handy. Don't get me started on sales where I often times grab games for $5 a pop.

Their ToS mean you pay them for the service they provide you of letting you play their games, not for ownership of the games. But you say it's exactly the same thing as if you had bought it because they don't enforce their ToS as much as they could, so everything is perfectly right.

I think that's wrong and you're putting way too much trust in Valve Corp.

(11-13-2012, 07:10 AM)Lee_Stricklin Wrote:
(11-12-2012, 05:34 PM)Mr. Bougo Wrote: Why is it legal to have a backup copy? Do you even own the thing, or is it just a renting of sorts?

Generally speaking it's OK to have backups of stuff your licensed to use and some of the TOS that I've read (namely the one for Unreal Tournament: Game of the Year Edition) explicitly say so. Your even legally allowed possess ROMs of any old console games you have lying around.

I don't believe you. Here is a relevant section in US copyright law. Do you own the copy of the software in Steam? If so, does it make any sense at all to make an archival copy of the game, considering that you either lose your rights to play the game with termination of your account OR get to download it again through Steam should you lose it?

Also, you would only be legally allowed to possess ROMs that you made yourself for archival purposes.

If you know of rulings, terms or laws that say otherwise, please do show them.
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#17
Read the ToS on a retail, non-steam game and then read the ToS for a game that's put up on Steam. If we're going by ToS, your essentially renting almost ALL of the PC games you bought licenses for. The only real difference is distribution method. btw it's also been said in the past that if Steam were to go down, that you would be able to download all the stuff you purchased from it before it gets taken down permanently AND you can always back up whatever stuff you've acquired through it using a tool that's built into it. If you absolutely hate the platform or software in question, then simply don't use it. Problem solved.
ECKZBAWKZ HUGE LIST OF ACHIEVEMENTS GOES HERE....


Oh wait.
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#18
(11-13-2012, 11:22 AM)hutty Wrote:
Quote:So far, no DRM scheme in the history of human achievement hasn't been bypassed.

I'm pretty sure the track mania sunrise system ... where it installs a custom driver for your cd drive to read the special cd the game comes on ... hasn't been cracked ....

however ... since then the company has released the game without the sill DRM scheme ...

Many sources on the net say that StarForce has been cracked too.
My contributions to Xonotic: talking in the forum, talking some more, talking a bit in the irc, talking in the forum again, XSkie
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#19
(11-13-2012, 07:28 PM)Lee_Stricklin Wrote: Read the ToS on a retail, non-steam game and then read the ToS for a game that's put up on Steam. If we're going by ToS, your essentially renting almost ALL of the PC games you bought licenses for. The only real difference is distribution method. btw it's also been said in the past that if Steam were to go down, that you would be able to download all the stuff you purchased from it before it gets taken down permanently AND you can always back up whatever stuff you've acquired through it using a tool that's built into it.

I'll check it out. Can you give me examples to make sure that we read the same ToS, or are you really stating this as a general rule?

(11-13-2012, 07:28 PM)Lee_Stricklin Wrote: If you absolutely hate the platform or software in question, then simply don't use it. Problem solved.

I don't absolutely hate it, I just would not want to put my trust and money in this (so I don't). Same with iTunes.
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#20
I would like to put money, but only in free software, with DRM it's an absolute no for me too!
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#21
(11-14-2012, 01:06 AM)Mr. Bougo Wrote:
(11-13-2012, 07:28 PM)Lee_Stricklin Wrote: Read the ToS on a retail, non-steam game and then read the ToS for a game that's put up on Steam. If we're going by ToS, your essentially renting almost ALL of the PC games you bought licenses for. The only real difference is distribution method. btw it's also been said in the past that if Steam were to go down, that you would be able to download all the stuff you purchased from it before it gets taken down permanently AND you can always back up whatever stuff you've acquired through it using a tool that's built into it.

I'll check it out. Can you give me examples to make sure that we read the same ToS, or are you really stating this as a general rule?

(11-13-2012, 07:28 PM)Lee_Stricklin Wrote: If you absolutely hate the platform or software in question, then simply don't use it. Problem solved.

I don't absolutely hate it, I just would not want to put my trust and money in this (so I don't). Same with iTunes.

The ToS thing is mostly just a general rule. I'm pretty sure there will be an exception here or there, but in most of the ones I've read they've pretty much just given you the right to use a copy of their software. Newer EULAs (mostly after 2005) have gotten pretty extreme in comparison to something you'd find on say a copy of UT99 or StarSiege: Tribes, going as far as saying they reserve the right to deactivate your key for this dumb reason or that dumb reason.

(11-13-2012, 11:41 PM)Cyber Killer Wrote:
(11-13-2012, 11:22 AM)hutty Wrote:
Quote:So far, no DRM scheme in the history of human achievement hasn't been bypassed.

I'm pretty sure the track mania sunrise system ... where it installs a custom driver for your cd drive to read the special cd the game comes on ... hasn't been cracked ....

however ... since then the company has released the game without the sill DRM scheme ...

Many sources on the net say that StarForce has been cracked too.

Virtually EVERY DRM SCHEME has been cracked in one way or another, including StarForce. The only thing that people haven't done (yet) is emulate XBox Live/Games for Windows Live, but most developers are ditching support for that in PC games due to the sheer amount of pissed off customers killing any chance of a sale when they slap that stuff onto a game.
ECKZBAWKZ HUGE LIST OF ACHIEVEMENTS GOES HERE....


Oh wait.
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#22
(11-07-2012, 04:29 PM)Maddin Wrote: Dude I don´t use any hacks or methods that are illegal...

???Your God is the state and your religion is their laws???
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#23
Steam is quite nice with its DRM. It really is very non-intrusive and Valve doesn't force DRM on any developers; it gives them a choice whether they'll implement their own solution, Steam DRM or no solution at all. So I think it's it's fair and square.

It is obviously a closed platform, but on the other hand, we seriously lack games in Linux, and hey, Valve is bringing over some damn good games (particularly L4D2, which is one of my favourite games of all time for multiplayer games). And if it helps get Linux noticed, then it's all better in the end. They will naturally discover the perks of either dropping DRM or even going open-source (though I recognise this approach doesn't work with all business models) once they are actively developing for Linux.

I think Steam coming to Linux is a good thing as the long term effect is that more people will use Open Source Software, on the de facto Open Source Operating System. The change will happen in time.
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#24
Bump!

So I got the email today and am part of the Steam beta. Looks like non-Ubuntu users are now getting invites. The release currently is .deb only (groan!) but there are some instructions for handling that and advice seems to be NOT to use Alien and even then there are some dependency issues for some distros. I'm going to have a go in the next few days.
I'm at least a reasonably tolerable person to be around - Narcopic
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#25
Cool. Signed any NDAs or can you share your frustrations?
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