[SUGGESTION] Balance Chart ...

[response pic left out for maximum seriousness]

Ok ... mepper has posted his ballance suggestion here

However I ... and many other people do not care for it ...

Here is my suggestion for future balance ...


svg version



Changes .... (from 0.6 balance)

• lg replaces mg in core set
  
• bullets removed ... electric added
  
• laser is considered a movement wepon (you still spawn with it ... no functional changes )
  
• mg now uses shells
  
• rifle uses same tech as nex ... but still works the same (diffrent visual effect)
  
• portal launch is no longer a super weapon ... and thus ... no timer
  
• a separate minelayer (bigger mines) is used against vehicles
  

Weapons in the rare set are meant for certain circumstances where they work well ... or for nice finds in secret-ish areas of a map ...


... there is ammo symmetry in the core (and rare) set ...




This is an expansion of machine's chart (which I like ... btw)

you forgot tuba

fixed

All these balance arguments when yall could just dl git and make your own weapons and see that there's no need for this.

... I guess you are new to this .... but there have been balance arguments for as long as xonotic existed ...

Yes I could potentially download git (and have in the past) and create my own weapons ...
However, I don't quite have the programming skills and could only get as far as modifying which direction the HLAC recoiled to when I shot ...

There is a need for xonotic to have a default weapon set that people can recognize ... this forms xonotic's identity (as does the art style ... which is why xonotic's default maps fit style wise ... nexuiz did not have a unified art style ... which led to consistency/quality issues down the road ...)

Past balance threads were about debating the damage values ... and reload times ... of the current weapons ...
since 0.5 these arguments have died down ...

Now the current discussion is how we can rearrange the current weapon/ammo set so that it makes sense ... and is easier to understand for new players ...

Some people have wanted to do this by removing weapons like the shotgun or the HLAC (my precious) ...

So this is my attempt to provide a plan ... for the default xonotic weapon set ... that makes sense ... and does not remove any content ... (except bullets/nails ammo) ...

That which is removed or changed I'll just add back in my git version.
You should dl git again and experiment again.
In the past I couldn't change weapons, but eventually I learned.
nails will be back in my git version right away, and the stuff reset to what it was. Nex will probably get newenergy tho, if that's an added ammotype. Hagar will stay rockets.
Just gives me more work one day... Electro and crylink will stay cell, lighninggun (which is a gun in my mod) will... I guess new energy. Not sure though, maybe just nex for newenergy.

One thing I'd like is, like the g_weaponreplace stuff a g_ammoreplace so I can say "cell cell cell newenergy" for instance so there's enough newenergy around in older maps.

Really you care about this so much because you can't change things yourself yet. If you could you would just do what you want, post it maybe, and not care if others adopt it or not. You are passionate about this because you need someone else to do it. It's alot more fun to do it yourself once you can. Like your q/ about the ice friction stuff, that took about 2 min to do once the right spot in the code was found. It was very simple (though I know nothing about engine prediction so that part is not simple for me). Learn

Hutty, Mepper and I assume many others are first and foremost players of this game. 'The game' needs a set of default settings for competition in small boxlike and repetitive maps to play against others online. This is truth, it shall not be questioned.

Nice chart hutty! Iit's nice to have it visualized, hmm, Samual said that he had finished the ammo system(iirc), by that I donät know if he had done the new spawn weapon too, he doesn't seem to want the spawn weapon to even have ammo, which is understandable.

YET ANOTHER EDIT:
I've added a second chart to this post that represents what I think the likelyhood of running across weapons are. It's very close to what hutty put in his chart, but might have a difference or two in it.

EDIT:
Actually if your determining likelyhood of picking up the weapons in your chart, then I fully agree with it, though it should be noted that mappers have to be careful how they use the Machine Gun, HLAC, and Crylink weapons as the HLAC is mostly a redundant weapon that acts very similar to the other two mentioned. Original post of mine is still left in tact though.


ORIGINAL POST:
Your on to something, but I'm still disagreeing with the chart (mostly with how you labelled certain weapons core weapons, rare weapons, etc.). Here's what I thought up, though I'm still a bit iffy on the ammo placement. Yes two weapons (laser and shotgun) have been placed in multiple categories, that was done intentionally.

Weapon and ammo chart
-----------------------------------------
Spawn Weapons
-------------
Laser (unlimited)
Shotgun (lead)

Core Weapons
-------------
Laser (unlimited)
Shotgun (lead)
Crylink (plasma)
Electro (cells)
Machine Gun (lead)
Hagar (currently explosive, lead sounds like a good idea though)
Rocket Launcher (explosive)
Nex (plasma)
Mortar (explosive)

Undetermined (not sure where to place yet)
--------------
Lightning Arc Gun (cell, weapon will probably replace Machine Gun in the core set)

Special Purpose (usually vehicular combat)
--------------
Mine Layer (explosive)
Seeker (explosive)

Super Weapons
--------------
Minsta Nex (plasma)
Fireball (explosive)

Bonus Weapons
---------------
HLAC (cell)
Camping Rifle (lead)

Utility
---------------
Laser (unlimited)
Hook (fuel or unlimited)
Jetpack (fuel or recharging)
Porto (maybe this can be treated like a limited use powerup?)

Powerups
---------------
Strength (timed quad damage)
Shield (timed increase resistance to damage)
Extra Lives (saves you from getting killed, comes in limited quantities)
Speed (increase player movement speed for a short amount of time)


Weapon rarity chart
-----------------------------------------
Common
---------------
Laser
Shotgun
Crylink
Electro
Nex
Mortar
Rocket Launcher

Uncommon (Mappers have to be extra careful with how they use these weapons)
---------------
Machine Gun
HLAC
Camping Rifle
Hook
Jetpack

Rare, most common to least common (Usually map or gametype specific)
---------------
Mine Layer
TAG and Seeker

Undetermined
----------------
Lightning Arc Gun (will likely be a replacement for the machinegun in the core set)
Fireball (this is the main super weapon of the game)
Minsta Nex (almost always breaks maps intended for normal play, should only be used in instagib and minstagib games in my opinion)
Porto (can maybe be treated like a powerup with a limited amount of ammo?)

+1

The current weapon and ammo system are fucked up, and the one above suggested is fucked even more. We need to type /clear, and make a new, totally NEW system.

whos is not clear? mine ... or lee's? ...

I tried to make mine as clear as possible ...

The chart makes some sense, ammo right now is mostly rockets/energy, you rarely have to look for ammo and it always powers up 3-5 weapons at once. This is a design problem, whether people actually want to hunt for 4 different ammo boxes.

All. And meper's as well.

hmm...
hopefully two types of cells will balance out ammo.... one of the things xonotic needs is ammo symmetry, so the scarcity of ammo can actually be dictated by mappers. Hutty's system achieves this in most respects, but making the shotty and hagar consume the same ammo is, in my opinion, something that will make the shotgun useless; most players will consume all shell ammo upon acquiring hagar.
There was talk about merging the Hagar with the seeker to make it a vehicle / superweapon. This would give us symmetry across the core set if samual's proposals were used: 2 infammo, 2cells, 2antimatter, and (now)2 HE ammo weapons, in addition to that samual's proposal - hagar would have symmetry in terms of weapon attacks, with 3 types of attack across each ammo group: 1.laser, shotty, melee 2. crylink primary, secondary, and nex etc...

I feel like another thing that needs to be done to achieve correct balance is eliminating redundancy from firemodes, for instance the electro primary, the crylink secondary(samual's new one), and the mortar primary are all essentially the same attack with different variations.

Hutty's idea is better than the current system by any means though.

EDIT: To the rest of you jokers screaming "OMG BALANCE THREAD!!!1!!!one!111", we're mostly discussing ammo symmetry, which weapons are core weapons, and that sort of thing. Which is something that hasn't been discussed too much in my opinion. We're not really talking damage, etc. which is something that burned other topics up.



Original post below:

Ammo symmetry is something this game needs right now definitely. The problem is do we want it to be fully symmetrical or do we want sort of a curve to it when we take the bonus (Camping Rifle, HLAC, Fireball) and specialized (TAG Seeker, Mine Layer) weapons into account? Or are we just going to do away with the bonus weapons entirely? Also, will the Lightning Arc Gun replace the Machine Gun's current role?


Looking at the first chart again, I definitely have to agree with the core set of weapons placed on it. The ammo placement on it is fully symmetrical and the Machine Gun has been replaced by the Arc Gun which would definitely promote better gameplay. Other things on it though I'm finding to be a little questionable.

This is a balance thread.

Its supposed to be a balance thread ... :3

Other things on it though I'm finding to be a little questionable.

please explain

No.

No.

The most confusing post I've ever read. Does it apply to OP? Or one post above it? Or maybe to all of them?

^THIS^

No.

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

This is a balance thread.

Do it yourself and stop complaining.

* HellYeah agrees

It's very easy to make a new balance. It's also easy to change what ammotype a weapon uses:


xonotic-data.pk3dir/qcsrc/server/

Just regex replace IT_CELLS and ammo_cells with IT_NEWGAT and ammo_newgat:

REGISTER_WEAPON(CRYLINK, w_crylink, IT_CELLS, 6, WEP_FLAG_NORMAL | WEP_FLAG_RELOADABLE | WEP_TYPE_SPLASH, BOT_PICKUP_RATING_MID, "crylink", "crylink", _("Crylink"));

W_DecreaseAmmo(ammo_cells, autocvar_g_balance_crylink_primary_ammo, autocvar_g_balance_crylink_reload_ammo);

Adding a new ammo type is not terribly hard either, usually it isn't done because people like the sorta fire-wind-water-earth style ammo system that's around now.
You got something shooting something solid, iron like? (bullets, arrow, etc) IT_NAILS, something shooting blue plazma or electricity, IT_CELLS, you got something dealing death by fire and explosion: IT_ROCKETS. You got something that sorta spits out a cone of something that is not quite a solid but not quite a liquid or energy, IT_SHELLS for your shotgun needs. Then there's IT_FUEL which is similar to the magic element, it helps you fly.

You can add IT_WHATEVER if you wish.
server/t_items.qc
common/t_items.qc
common/t_items.qh
client/hud.qc

But you can just make a weapon use 2 ammo types too instead, or just make it use more ammo of one.
server/w_hook.qc:REGISTER_WEAPON(HOOK, w_hook, IT_CELLS|IT_FUEL, 0, WEP_FLAG_CANCLIMB | WEP_TYPE_SPLASH, 0, "hookgun", "hook", _("Grappling Hook"))
W_DecreaseAmmo(ammo_fuel, autocvar_g_balance_hook_primary_fuel, FALSE);
W_DecreaseAmmo(ammo_cells, autocvar_g_balance_hook_secondary_ammo, FALSE);

(yes hook doesn't do it for the same attack, but you could)

We don't all have to have the same balance or code, each can change it to the way he wishes.
The same is not true in the real world where we must all believe the same things and are forced to have the same culture in any area where it counts, lest bombs or invasions (or in allready conqured areas: imprisonment and official or unofficial/accidental executions) happen.
Lets enjoy what freedom we have, even if it's in a fake world, rather than try to force each of our favorite balance into the default?

^I do not agree with that mindset at all. We need one main balance set, that:
-makes at least core weapons actually balanced (not OP or UP) and not redundant with one another.
-has sensible ammo distribution.

When at least most people agree there is a problem with current one, odds are, there indeed is a problem with current one and it may be made better. What do you propose instead? That everyone fixes it on their own how they see fit, creating myriad of different sets on myriad of different servers, leaving newbies utterly confused?

That will not happen, don't bother going into it in more detail than just:

No.