Create an account


Thread Rating:
  • 0 Vote(s) - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
[WIP] Aerowalk

#1
Hi!

This is a remake of the famous map "Aerowalk" by "The Preacher". The layout is the same though scaled in various areas to fit Xonotic. The most notable change is the Megaarmor platform which is now easier to reach. Some items changed slightly in position.

Before you leave a comment... There are no visual details added yet! This will change! Until then the primary focus is on gameplay, layout and item placement!

The map name could be changed. I named it Airwalk for now but I welcome any better name for this map!

One thing that needs clarification is licensing. Can this map be released under GPL?

[Image: airwalk.jpg]

Download: airwalk_v3.pk3

Suggestions are welcome! Big Grin
Reply

#2
There we go Maddin good job!
Reply

#3
looks interesting! ill check it out
[Image: 38443.png]
Reply

#4
-My philosophy is simple; if you can't jump to RA then you're forced to blaster jump up there. As it is now, RA jump is too easy almost every which way:
  • You can jump from electro and reach it with forward momentum alone
  • You can circle jump from the top stair and don't even have to sweat it
  • You can even wallstrafe and reach those extended platform edges easily
  • If you're coming in fast, there's basically no way to not reach the platform.

Whereas the spot of the RA platform feels okay, it feels like the top stair and electro spot is too close in comparison. The ideal difficulty would be that it's impossible to reach with one jump unless you're jumping from Electro (and doing an actual circle jump). You got a few ways to adjust the difficulty:
  • Put RA platform higher (as long as jump height can reach it, then theoretically it's always possible)
  • Make the RA platform smaller and remove those extended edges.
  • Drag the entire geometry in electro side outwards from RA platform.
  • Drag the RA platform closer to Crylink* although this might change the proportions in an unwanted way.
Here's some reference to RA jumps difficulty in case you haven't seen it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-SMJx1OIDgk

-RA platform is missing the holes to shoot through and it's a bit too easy to see from beneath if someone is standing there.

-The wall slope above stairs leading up to mega health is missing: http://i.imgur.com/CroHlHY.png This is a characteristic trait of the map and usually a place where people attempting to jump over the gap above upper levels, gets trapped in. Additionally in Xonotic's aerowalk version, it also gives the possibility to "surf" through the gap without making any step/jump/landing sounds.

-There's all kinds of wrong about this spot: http://i.imgur.com/Eja2GZf.png
  • Spawn point: I take it as it's where you moved the spawn from in front of the upper rocket. Probably an attempt to thin out spawn locations or make spawn killing harder. What happens though is that you make match-start spawns more unfair to the RA side. Most Aerowalk matches start with a race to the mega and that's why it's kind of crucial where the spawns are.
  • Tele exit: The teleporter from the center takes you right on this platform with your feet touching it. Which means you enter the teleporter and then you can just walk to the upper rocket. The characteristics of that tele exit is that you either fall to the mortar or you aircontrol yourself to the upper level. You can fix this easily by moving the tele exit higher.
  • Angles: On the first look it seems like you were inspired by the Quake Live version of aerowalk which also had a platform like this. But what this recreation does wrong is that you don't get the same angles the Quake Live version provided: http://i.imgur.com/55ttSfF.png Basically being able to shoot to the 50 armor. It's a thing in Quake Live where you've got a much slower momentum going on all the time, but assuming that you got the angles right for a Xonotic version. I don't think it would add much in any case. I don't find it necessary.

-The extra spawn near the exit of the jump pad tunnel is not bad, but it's unnecessary. It can break the spawn forcing probability and balance unintentionally. In general I would recommend following the spawn locations of hub3aeroq3a_nex_r4 as precisely as possible.

-*Crylink is a huge no-no, not just because it's annoying and unbalanced, but also because it replaces a lower rocket spawn. This map needs two rockets no matter what Tongue

If you really want a crylink in aerowalk then the spawn should be at where the MG is and replace that instead. I personally would hate a crylink in Aerowalk though, it's not a skill weapon, it's hard enough to dodge projectiles in this map already and it would make collecting ammo for Vortex all the more easier. It might also introduce a new more annoying way to get spawn killed.

-These wall corners could be a little bit larger. They're crucial for mortar ricochets as well as blaster wall boosts:

http://i.imgur.com/YsfVAmE.png
http://i.imgur.com/OasKAyv.png

-Wallbanging is kind of a feature in Xonotic and it shines at it's best in Aerowalk, so I'm gonna make a video about "wallganging and ricochets", basically some angles and tactics in hub3aeroq3a_nex_r4 in general - to demonstrate where you can improve the geometry and proportions a little bit. It's hard to explain it with words alone, so wait for it Tongue

-I saw windows all over the map. While these adds to the aesthetics and look nice, I think they might interrupt projectile trajectories unintentionally. For example, that little peeking hole in between mortar spawn and mega health area usually gets all kinds of rockets and mortars shot through. Some rockets might accidentally go through those windows in there and end up not dealing any splash damage where it would have been deserved. I've never liked projectile-passable windows in any version of Aerowalk, if you removed them all then I would certainly not miss them.

-Teleporters should be inside the walls. Never ever in any Aerowalk have you been able to enter a teleporter from it's side or above of the brush Tongue

-Jump pad doesn't slow you down enough, you can get out there with the forward momentum that the jump pad gives you. Although in my opinion this might not be a bad feature.
Reply

#5
(05-01-2016, 04:52 AM)Smilecythe Wrote: -My philosophy is simple; if you can't jump to RA then you're forced to blaster jump up there. As it is now, RA jump is too easy almost every which way:
  • You can jump from electro and reach it with forward momentum alone
  • You can circle jump from the top stair and don't even have to sweat it
  • You can even wallstrafe and reach those extended platform edges easily
  • If you're coming in fast, there's basically no way to not reach the platform.

Whereas the spot of the RA platform feels okay, it feels like the top stair and electro spot is too close in comparison. The ideal difficulty would be that it's impossible to reach with one jump unless you're jumping from Electro (and doing an actual circle jump). You got a few ways to adjust the difficulty:
  • Put RA platform higher (as long as jump height can reach it, then theoretically it's always possible)
  • Make the RA platform smaller and remove those extended edges.
  • Drag the entire geometry in electro side outwards from RA platform.
  • Drag the RA platform closer to Crylink* although this might change the proportions in an unwanted way.
Here's some reference to RA jumps difficulty in case you haven't seen it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-SMJx1OIDgk
Heh. This is a tough topic it seems. It was my intention to make the Megaarmor platform being easier to reach. I'll try to explain why: It never seemed to have any good reason for me to have the platform that far away forcing you to do insane jump tricks which can only the most skilled players can perform. Now, how many people can actually do proper circle jumps? Some do, but not many. Then, how many people can do those difficult jumps in the heat of a fight? I'd guess one or two if they have a bit of luck but probably nobody would risk it. Additionally it widens the gap between newbies and pros which I personally don't like. Don't get me wrong, it's not my intention to make this casual (probably the wrong word, I hope you get what I mean) but make things more accessible to a reasonable degree. That is doing a single, slightly circle accelerated jump (but not a simple not accelerated jump!) to reach the platform. I really want you to have a look at this from a different perspective.

(05-01-2016, 04:52 AM)Smilecythe Wrote: -RA platform is missing the holes to shoot through and it's a bit too easy to see from beneath if someone is standing there.
Fixed.

(05-01-2016, 04:52 AM)Smilecythe Wrote: -The wall slope above stairs leading up to mega health is missing: http://i.imgur.com/CroHlHY.png This is a characteristic trait of the map and usually a place where people attempting to jump over the gap above upper levels, gets trapped in. Additionally in Xonotic's aerowalk version, it also gives the possibility to "surf" through the gap without making any step/jump/landing sounds.
Fixed.

(05-01-2016, 04:52 AM)Smilecythe Wrote: -There's all kinds of wrong about this spot: http://i.imgur.com/Eja2GZf.png
  • Spawn point: I take it as it's where you moved the spawn from in front of the upper rocket. Probably an attempt to thin out spawn locations or make spawn killing harder. What happens though is that you make match-start spawns more unfair to the RA side. Most Aerowalk matches start with a race to the mega and that's why it's kind of crucial where the spawns are.
  • Tele exit: The teleporter from the center takes you right on this platform with your feet touching it. Which means you enter the teleporter and then you can just walk to the upper rocket. The characteristics of that tele exit is that you either fall to the mortar or you aircontrol yourself to the upper level. You can fix this easily by moving the tele exit higher.
  • Angles: On the first look it seems like you were inspired by the Quake Live version of aerowalk which also had a platform like this. But what this recreation does wrong is that you don't get the same angles the Quake Live version provided: http://i.imgur.com/55ttSfF.png Basically being able to shoot to the 50 armor. It's a thing in Quake Live where you've got a much slower momentum going on all the time, but assuming that you got the angles right for a Xonotic version. I don't think it would add much in any case. I don't find it necessary.

-The extra spawn near the exit of the jump pad tunnel is not bad, but it's unnecessary. It can break the spawn forcing probability and balance unintentionally. In general I would recommend following the spawn locations of hub3aeroq3a_nex_r4 as precisely as possible.
Again, this is part of the plan to make this map more accessible and logical. Actually the spawn count (6 in total) didn't change but the two spawns near the mortar have been moved. I dropped the one near the teleporter exit down to it's original position for the next version but slightly towards the Mortar so you can't spawn-frag with a Nex shot. The other one near the jumppad... well, I get your point. While it may be slightly unfair at the beginning I think it prevents spawn-fragging which is a way bigger problem than one possibly though not necessarily Mega steal.

(05-01-2016, 04:52 AM)Smilecythe Wrote: -*Crylink is a huge no-no, not just because it's annoying and unbalanced, but also because it replaces a lower rocket spawn. This map needs two rockets no matter what Tongue

If you really want a crylink in aerowalk then the spawn should be at where the MG is and replace that instead. I personally would hate a crylink in Aerowalk though, it's not a skill weapon, it's hard enough to dodge projectiles in this map already and it would make collecting ammo for Vortex all the more easier. It might also introduce a new more annoying way to get spawn killed.
Ok, replaced the MG with a Crylink for now and reverted the second Rocketlauncher spawn as you suggested. It should be mentioned that, generally speaking, just by removing Crylink from a map you won't fix the actual problem which is an unbalanced weapon. The focus should be on fixing the Crylink. Apart from that I really want to test the new Lighting gun in this map and see how it fits.

(05-01-2016, 04:52 AM)Smilecythe Wrote: -These wall corners could be a little bit larger. They're crucial for mortar ricochets as well as blaster wall boosts:

http://i.imgur.com/YsfVAmE.png
http://i.imgur.com/OasKAyv.png
Fixed.

(05-01-2016, 04:52 AM)Smilecythe Wrote: -Wallbanging is kind of a feature in Xonotic and it shines at it's best in Aerowalk, so I'm gonna make a video about "wallganging and ricochets", basically some angles and tactics in hub3aeroq3a_nex_r4 in general - to demonstrate where you can improve the geometry and proportions a little bit. It's hard to explain it with words alone, so wait for it Tongue
Ok I'm waiting... Big Grin

(05-01-2016, 04:52 AM)Smilecythe Wrote: -I saw windows all over the map. While these adds to the aesthetics and look nice, I think they might interrupt projectile trajectories unintentionally. For example, that little peeking hole in between mortar spawn and mega health area usually gets all kinds of rockets and mortars shot through. Some rockets might accidentally go through those windows in there and end up not dealing any splash damage where it would have been deserved. I've never liked projectile-passable windows in any version of Aerowalk, if you removed them all then I would certainly not miss them.
The outer windows are just placeholder aesthetics. Nothing that will stay untouched for the final version. I weapon-clipped those now so projectiles will explode just like it was a simple wall.

(05-01-2016, 04:52 AM)Smilecythe Wrote: -Teleporters should be inside the walls. Never ever in any Aerowalk have you been able to enter a teleporter from it's side or above of the brush Tongue
Not that it wouldn't be possible to do but why is this such a big deal? Just because everyone else did that in previous versions means that we have to follow this trend? What's the reason behind this? Is it because you would accidentally teleport while moving past? If so one could argue that you accidentally would not teleport while wanting to do so if the teleporters where placed inset... Tongue

(05-01-2016, 04:52 AM)Smilecythe Wrote: -Jump pad doesn't slow you down enough, you can get out there with the forward momentum that the jump pad gives you. Although in my opinion this might not be a bad feature.
I take it as a "not a bad feature" then if you feel confident with that. Big Grin
Reply

#6
Mega armor: Well it's always been easy to get to mega armor with blaster jumps and majority of times people get there with blaster. However every time you do the blaster jump, you give off a blaster sound and notify your enemy that you're "at it" in the mega armor. Some people even make fake blaster sounds just to confuse the enemy, it's a common element and part of what makes Xonotic's Aerowalk gameplay unique. But now that it's too easy to just jump there, you're likely to get less sound clues whether your opponent is going at the armor or just passing through.

Only a few people can get there without a blaster jump and only they have the advantage of not making blaster sounds. I think it should be a deserved advantage that you get from having the skills and not simply a choice. Rather than making the jump easier, people should take the time practicing those jumps instead. Besides everyone blaster jumps 90% of the time anyway (mostly to save time), it doesn't affect blaster jumps at all and nobody has ever complained that it's too hard to blaster jump in there.

Teleporters: The difference is huge, because there are many situations where you need that extra space that the sticking out teleporters occupy. It's also easier to estimate where the teleporters are when you're not directly looking at them, because you can most of the time see nearby walls that are aligned with the teleporter. It's harder to hit an in-wall teleporter than an out-wall teleporter by accident.

Spawn killing: It's not an issue in Aerowalk, it's a feature and why many people play it because of. Some maps just are like that and some are designed like that deliberately. Many people know that and avoid Aerowalk because of it already anyway. It's pointless to make the map more tolerable for those people and rid the fun out from the people who liked it in first place. Besides there's already a version of aerowalk (hub3aeroq3a_nex_r5) that added few extra spawns and made spawn killing harder. Nobody plays that version. Not the Aerowalk-fans, not the "I can tolerate Aerowalk if.." people. I don't know anyone who plays that version, but I've played it enough times to realize that spawnkilling didn't go down at all regardless the spawn changes. It just felt like playing a familiar map with entirely different laws of nature, due to the flow and routes the edited spawns introduced. People who've played this map in Xonotic since forever will easily recognize subtle changes like that in gameplay. If you go down this route then you might end up with a pretty remake of Aerowalk that nobody appreciates.

Also, there's spawn delaying now as well. When you die, you can most of the time see or hear which direction your opponent is pre-shooting rockets and due to the spawn forcing system, it's usually the right spawn. Just wait it out, don't spawn immediately. If you get spawnkilled then it's just your fault for not paying attention or being impatient.

EDIT: Also regarding the spawn killing potential with Crylink. You do realize the primary fire slows you down and the secondary has a pull effect right? If you get a direct hit to someone in spawn with the secondary, you'll be pulling them towards you at a breakneck speed. I could imagine many instances where the inclusion of Crylink would make spawnkilling all the more annoying. And not just direct spawn kills, being in control in general as well. As you now have a weapon that can nullify your opponent's movement with very little risk on a very cramped map. I don't think fixing the weapon would solve this issue, unless it was a differently behaving weapon entirely.. I don't think it will change quite that much.
Reply

#7
Smilescythe, very cool jumps on aerowalk. Nice ideas to try out, mb practice a few for 10/10 stability for legit match situations.
Maddin i'll try out your version, as soon as i will be able to. Good job man.
Reply

#8
I felt the scaling was very nice and with Smile's adjustments it could possibly be the new Areowalk for Xonotic.
[Image: 38443.png]
Reply

#9
If this ever goes anywhere - as in, developed, fleshed out, accepted by the community, and ready for an art pass - I'll be happy to lend a hand in creating some textures for it so that it isn't swamped down by gross default xon textures... and perhaps this time I might actually get off my arse and make shaders that work.
Reply

#10
Update! Version 2 is out!

Changelog:
  • Megaarmor platform moved 64 units away making the single jump now very difficult.
  • Megaarmor platform has now holes in it which you can shoot through. Players can now hide there like in the original.
  • Player spawn near Mortar now moved down, more like in the original, but behind the pillar to prevent spawn-fragging with the Nex.
  • Weapon-clipped all outer windows so explosives won't get lost.
  • Insetting all teleporters.
  • Replaced Crylink with Rocketlauncher.
  • Minor player-clipping here and there.
  • Moved 50 armor slightly towards Megahealth.
  • Thinned ledge above Mortar spawn.
  • Wider angled corners in specific areas to allow for better ricocheting grenades.
  • Added the wall slope between Nex and upper Rocketlauncher.

Download: airwalk_v2.pk3
Reply

#11
You should replace mg with arc.
Reply

#12
The arc isn't even a finished weapon yet. It's still going through testing phases and reconstruction. Besides, you can just vcall arc on SMB duel servers and it will automatically replace MG's with the Arc.
[Image: 38443.png]
Reply

#13
Aight.
Reply

#14
Yo, nice to see someone refreshing areowalk!

I have not played any games on the map but ran around a little and it does flow well with the new scaling! I have some of the same concerns about RA as smilecythe though, I agree making it easier would be nice because it would bring new way to trick the opponent (yes i know smiley can make that jump already but I never seen that done in a competitive game even if im sure a few have done it, making it more common would just be fun and make more interesting matches imo, would require play testing ofc). The current version though it is really too easy, I rarely play Xonotic anymore and with that skill it was a trivial 2 jump procedure.

Another that came to mind is these: https://imgur.com/a/nYdpO , these are placed so that the player down at the mega health and armor has the advantage, because the player at the shards doesn't have enough high grounds to see over the ledge. Usually in aerowalk matches the player in control is at mega health and the opponent is at the shards, this could lead to easier control. Playtesting will prove this theory right or wrong though, and it can aswell lead to new interesting plays. Smile

Another point I want to make, I am all for re-newing areowalk, but I know a lot of people will keep play the old version either way. Maybe go a little bit crazy and make it into a complete new version (ie item placement etc.), could be interesting!
Reply

#15
(05-02-2016, 02:40 AM)machine! Wrote: Another point I want to make, I am all for re-newing areowalk, but I know a lot of people will keep play the old version either way. Maybe go a little bit crazy and make it into a complete new version (ie item placement etc.), could be interesting!
Maddin did change places for a few health bubbles a little bit, the double bubbles at the Electro room are seperated by the stairs for example. Subtle changes like that are fine, but the major items should always be where they've always been Tongue There's nothing to fix there and experimentation is overrated.

Here's an interesting thing in one of the Quake 4's versions of Aerowalk: https://youtu.be/_tDC5V3TZCQ?t=40s

What the mapper did there was make the health bubbles slightly less accessible, but at the same time (perhaps not intended) he made another possible trickjump to the armor.

EDIT: Here's some more ideas/adjustments.

[Image: fgIKMtX.png]

[Image: FpZnTsi.png]

[Image: aaexVbH.png]
And I mean the same for all of the door frames. Keep in mind that the angles from Electro to center room and vice versa, might change unintentionally. It might open the map too much, but I'm not sure if it would be a bad thing.

EDIT 2: And here's some ideas that I went through with you in the server before.

[Image: yNvDeoM.png]

[Image: 37Xm00z.png]
Reply

#16
Here's the video I promised:

Reply

#17
Those mortar effects looks so cheating.
Reply

#18
But it shows how the grenades actually fly which is an important part! Thanks for that Smilecythe! Besides that this is not about cheating.
Reply

#19
You welcome Smile

@Beagle: I don't consider them cheating for two reasons:

-It makes no difference to your aim, you won't know the trajectory of the mortar before hand.
-There's mortar trails that visualize trajectory by default. They're just harder to see and it's clarity varies depending on how many graphical settings you have turned on anyway. I'm just taking it up a notch because fuck you Big Grin

EDIT: You're welcome to have the effect info file that I'm using: https://www.dropbox.com/s/wk5phob5e83b5c...o.txt?dl=0
Download it as a .txt file and put it to the same place where your config is, then you'll have my mortar trails.

Extra reason why it's not cheating:

-Everyone is using bright mega erebus models to make players easier to spot and that's considered acceptable. Players are able to turn off bloom, coronas and dynamic lights to make explosions less intense to the eyes and that's considered acceptable. Therefore better visibility is not cheating Wink
Reply

#20
Smilecythe.

I have come to the conclusion, you have too much time on your hands! Wink
[Image: 542.png]

#deathmatchers @ irc.quakenet.org

Reply

#21
Says the guy who spent months practicing boxing and stepping into a ring for charity! Wink
Reply

#22
Thanks but I have it already from this link http://forums.xonotic.org/showthread.php?tid=5499 Tongue It's the same dropbox link Smile
Reply

#23
Update! Version 3 is out!

Changelog:
  • Megaarmor platform moved another 32 units away... because reasons!
  • Aligned ceiling above Megaarmor platform.
  • Added spawn near upper Rocketlauncher.
  • Moved spawn at the Mortar to the Armorshards.
  • Added big pipes above the Megahealth for more controlled wall-banging.
  • Raised skybox ceiling.
  • Taller doorframes.
  • Added doorframe models.
  • Changed windows (near jumppad and Mortar) to be smaller in height but taller in width.
  • Some overall color adjustments. Don't bother those they are not final.
  • Added (fake) color grading.

There is still the question about licensing and naming. Any comments on this?

Download: airwalk_v3.pk3
Reply

#24
It's starting to look and feel really good! Here's some finishing touches with adjustments: http://imgur.com/a/WLeCE

The corners squared with red lines are corners I think should be sloped (or curved) primarily to make running around feel less blockier in essential areas. With these changes this version would be perfect, my only gripe with this version would then be unfinished visuals and that extra spawn on top of the jump pad Big Grin

Mr.Smiley approves!
Reply

#25
Nice. Smile

Sloped corners can be added as soon as I'm working on the visuals. Centering those teleporters and moving this one doorframe is also no problem. The health bubble has been moved too.
Reply



Possibly Related Threads...
Thread Author Replies Views Last Post
Rainbow Matuka's Aerowalk Textures V1.1 !!!Updated!!! Matuka 26 19,598 07-26-2012, 10:21 AM
Last Post: Matuka

Forum Jump:


Users browsing this thread:
1 Guest(s)

Forum software by © MyBB original theme © iAndrew 2016, remixed by -z-