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[WIP] mvxdm04 - Duel / FFA map

#1
Release #3 - 12.July.2017
Hi
I wasn't happy with the scale of the previous release, so I restarted the map again ... this time it is a lot larger and uses a 256x192 scale.

It would be great to get some feedback on the general size and layout of the map: download mvxdm04

Notes:
- No lighting done
- Weapon positions are open for suggestion
- Items positions are open for suggestion (except the MH and MA, I'd like to keep those 2 where they are).
- The warp-zones are not working - the blue holes only show where they are currently intended to be.
- There are LOTS of holes in the map - please ignore ignore for now.

Thanks

Release #2 - 11.May.2016
Hi
This release has been completely rebuilt from scratch, but it does keep a few of the ideas from the first version.
This time around I kept a 192x128 scale.

download removed.

Yes, the roof is missing - please concentrate on the "ground/floor" layout.
Yes, the textures look terrible - the map will be re-textured, once the layout has been finalised.
The positions of both the 100HP and 100AP are final, I've based the entire map on the idea that those two are right next to each other.

Release #1 - 01.May.2016
Hi
Here is a small map that I am currently messing around with. I expect this map to work as a duel map, or small FFA.

This is a very early release, for which I'm hoping for comments on layout and major item placements only.

download removed.

Thanks in advance for any and all feedback...
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#2
Screenies please.
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#3
(05-01-2016, 09:58 AM)munyul Wrote: The positions of both the 100HP and 100AP are final, I've based the entire map on the idea that those two are right next to each other.

I guess the 2nd Mega Armor is a mistake then. Tongue Stupid entities names there.
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#4
I really like that the two megas are so close and still far away Big Grin. The second armor is too much for this map imo.
The moving platform to reach the MA is a nice touch.

I think there are some big problems with this map:

1. Size:
It feels really small, even smaller than aerowalk. At some places it feels really cramped. On the other hand, it's not very open, so the size might be good enough for duel. Still I would prefer it to be bigger

2. Warpzone and Teleporters:
The warpzone is connecting opposite sites of the map. With g_spawnfurthest 1, this will probably lead to spawnfrag parties if you are not carefull with spawnpositions.
There are so many teleporters that you can easily run away from the enemy.

3. Mega Health:
You can rampjump to the mega health from the side of the stairs below or from the higher points of the map. The moving platform is useless in my opinion. Same goes for the section with nex - there is no real way to get there.

4. Area under MA:
There is no obvious way to get there and no real reason for going there unless you want to hide. It feels like an area for ppl who failed and fell down. Connect it more to the rest of the map and give it a better purpose maybe

5. Overall:
It feels really "blocky". There are pretty much only 90° angles between the walls. I know that brushes that are not aligned with the main axes are annoying to use but they bring gameplay variety
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#5
Not really liking the flow in this one, one of two corners is a dead end or a dead trap and there's cramped corridors everywhere, makes me feel like a rat crawling through a rat hole to another. It just looks like a badly scaled map and I don't think it suits a game that has bunnyhopping, aircontrol and blaster jumps. The gimmicks with moving platforms are nice, but you should try to scale this with the speed and pace of this game in mind. As well as the reach and trajectory of each of the splash weapons. Take reference from how maps like Fuse, Downer, Aerowalk or even your own map; Final Rage are scaled for instance. All very popular maps for their flow and pickup item scheme.

Also the reason why 100a + 50a + 100hp combo in a map is so popular is because it forces players to make decisions during item control. If there's 100 armors then it's going to be very easy to just pacman them at a rate at which they spawn. 50a can't be picked up if you have above 100a so you have to either pick 50a first or deal yourself some damage after 100a pickup. It might seem like when you have two 100as in a map, you're giving both players the equal stack, but that's never really what happens. It'll be harder to break control when your opponent has no reason to not go for an armor or priorities in the order of them.
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#6
Thanks for the super quick feedback.

Such feedback is why I kept the map very simple and didn't bother with adding too much detail or a roof for that matter Wink

I might wipe this layout and start again, on something scaled a little larger.

@Smilecythe, the plan was to have 1 x 100HP, 1 x 100AP, 1 x 50AP and n x 50HP.

Cheers
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#7
I've never seen a map that plays well with a direct view between mega items. It's been done before (in other games at least) and it hasn't played well before either. It's not a bad idea as long as it's done well. I think direct view is bad because you can use every weapon to block your enemy in the other side and it might actually offer too much freedom to camp either side. In Xonotic the mega health is not as important as mega armor, so you could just camp in the mega armor's side, step back and spam the mega health from a distance. To limit the usefulness of weapons and give players on the other side a better chance to get through unhurt, you could instead do something like this for example:



In this example weapons such as blaster, shotgun, vortex, hagar and perhaps rocket too would be hard if not impossible to use effectively. It would instead emphasize the advantage you get from having weapons like crylink, mortar and electro.
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#8
(05-03-2016, 06:34 AM)Smilecythe Wrote: ... In Xonotic the mega health is not as important as mega armor, ...

Care to elaborate on the reasoning behind it? Is it based on damage per average weapon hit?

(05-03-2016, 06:34 AM)Smilecythe Wrote:

You never stop amazing us with your creative hacks.
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#9
(05-03-2016, 03:49 PM)BuddyFriendGuy Wrote: Care to elaborate on the reasoning behind it? Is it based on damage per average weapon hit?
It's a situational probability, if you have to decide between 100a and 100hp then I recommend 100a. The guy with 200/0 stack will have a disadvantage against a guy with 100/100, because the drain when your stack is above 100 is ridiculously fast. Also there's rarely a case with armor where you don't get the full advantage. You might be at 10-30ish hp and upon picking up a mega health you'll barely reach hp at above 100 and you'll be about as good as you were at spawn. However if you pick a 100a at 10-30hp, you can still pick up smaller health packs or even regenerate. Health is important because it's what keeps you alive, because if you run out of HP then it doesn't matter how much armor you had left. In that regard mega health is useful, but it's not useful for keeping control unless you have some armor as well.

In general, you're better off treating mega health like a huge health bubble instead of a powerup. Very often it's not worth the damage you get from fighting over it.
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#10
Thanks a lot for the great insight!
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#11
@Smilecythe, regarding a direct view between mega items, I'm still going to have that in the map - It's something that I feel could work.

@Everyone ... Regarding size/scale (mapping units), I have some questions:

1. What is a "wide" gap, that is jumpable with a short run-up (64 - 128 units).
2. What feels good as a corridor width? I like using 192units.
3. What feels good as a corridor height? 128? 192? something else?
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#12
(05-05-2016, 01:02 PM)munyul Wrote: @Everyone ... Regarding size/scale (mapping units), I have some questions:

1. What is a "wide" gap, that is jumpable with a short run-up (64 - 128 units).
2. What feels good as a corridor width? I like using 192units.
3. What feels good as a corridor height? 128? 192? something else?

1. 256 units, needs a simple single jump to pass
2. 256 units for normal sized corridors and 192 units for smaller once. As Xonotic is very fast-paced 192 might seem a bit cramped for longer connections, use it only at short corridors or when map geometry allows for it (e.g. at a ledge where you have only one wall at the side).
3. 192 units, if your corridor is 256 wide. Then you have a ratio of 4:3 which feels very natural.
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#13
@Maddin, thanks for the feedback. After looking again at Final Rage, I decided to keep a 192x128 scale.

For those interested, a link to the latest test version can be found in the 1st post.
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#14
Hi
I've just released a new build for review (see 1st post), feedback on the scale and layout would be great.

Scale - would this be a okay size for duel tournament games? Or would team deathmatch be better suited?
Layout - How does the "flow" feel? The positioning of all items (except MH and MA) are open for suggestion.

If all standard weapons were available in this map, which weapon should be hardest to get? Currently, I have the Crylink in a not so easy to get position.
Cheers
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#15
From what I can remember, I actually liked the scaling of the previous version more. It's just that you had a lot of redundant obstacles everywhere that made it feel unnecessarily cramped. But as contradictory as this might sound, it was actually more satisfying to navigate in it when you could actually manage to avoid the obstacles.

However, when you up the scale like in your new version - you begin to have too much redundant space everywhere and moving around feels pointlessly easy. And for the less skilled/fast players, it just becomes a walking simulator.

As far as the scaling goes, I'd worry most about the verticality, because in Xonotic you can reach almost anywhere with blaster. So that's something to have in mind if you're attempting to restrict access from certain areas to another.

Also, depending if you want this map to work in duel or dm specifically, for duel you should find ways to merge some of the key rooms together, instead of just creating an entirely new room for it's own purpose every time. Isolated rooms like that just creates more of that redundant space everywhere. I have a lengthier post elaborating on that here: https://forums.xonotic.org/showthread.ph...3#pid72743
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#16
Hi Smilecythe, thanks for the reply.
Scale - For most parts I plan to keep the scale the way it is. Though, I will make changes to some ledges, based on comments from Maddin and yourself.
Area connections - I'll re-think how some rooms are connected.

Question to anyone thats seen the map:
Which weapon or item should be in place of where the Crylink is currently located?
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